what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?
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  what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?
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Question: what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?
#1
preponderance of the evidence
 
#2
beyond a reasonable doubt
 
#3
other (explain)
 
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Total Voters: 48

Author Topic: what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?  (Read 2468 times)
Frodo
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« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2014, 07:23:03 PM »

'Beyond a reasonable doubt'.   Beyond the Ivory Tower, rape is a criminal offense, and should be treated accordingly within as well even if the worst punishment an educational institution can inflict is expulsion.     
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2014, 09:11:20 PM »

College campuses (or really, any institution other than the state) are utterly ill-equipped to handle an issue as serious as rape and their handling of it manages to be harmful to both the victim and the accused. I pretty much agree with Tweed's points in this thread.
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Cory
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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2014, 09:19:13 PM »

It's not as if any judgement occurs in the university bureaucracy, right? Or that going to them is a traumatizing experience in and of itself, yes?

My mistake.

None of what you said does anything to mitigate the patent absurdity of this policy. If this or a similar policy were implemented regarding anything else at all you would almost certainly be crying foul, and rightly so.
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dead0man
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2014, 09:27:07 PM »

Okay, organizations with independent executive authority like marching band can basically determine their own membership standards as much as they want, right? I see no problem for them to exclude a person based on the fact that other members of the organization don't feel comfortable around him due to allegations made against him. It's their own call.
So if they (or some small set of them, or even just one of them) doesn't feel comfortable around the new AltoSax player because they're Muslim, they should have the ability to exclude them?  That seems like a dangerous road to go down.
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Vosem
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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2014, 09:32:09 PM »

'Beyond a reasonable doubt'.   Beyond the Ivory Tower, rape is a criminal offense, and should be treated accordingly within as well even if the worst punishment an educational institution can inflict is expulsion.     
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Beet
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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2014, 09:56:00 PM »

at its most basic level, this is one of the problems with a heavily privatized society.  power to mess with lives gets placed in Roger Goodell's hands, or the marching band exec's hands, or with the university professor.  at one level, since they act on behalf of private organizations, they can do whatever they want, fairness be damned... yet somehow, we know this isn't the whole story, that private orgs owe something to the public interest, owing to their social function.

Ok. Then where do you draw the line between an institutional power and a private power? You guys have brought up some good points, but this still makes me very uneasy. Should Roger Goodell have kept Ray Rice in the NFL, then? What if the probability that a rape occurred was substantially more than 50 percent? Should the university not be able to consider the psychological impact it would have on other students? Does the difference in severity between locking a guy up for 20 years, and expelling him from a school, or a marching band, make no difference at all in our willingness to apply remedies?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2014, 11:02:13 PM »

Okay, organizations with independent executive authority like marching band can basically determine their own membership standards as much as they want, right? I see no problem for them to exclude a person based on the fact that other members of the organization don't feel comfortable around him due to allegations made against him. It's their own call.
So if they (or some small set of them, or even just one of them) doesn't feel comfortable around the new AltoSax player because they're Muslim, they should have the ability to exclude them?  That seems like a dangerous road to go down.
It's called freedom of association.  You can't have freedom of association without having the freedom to not associate, and that also includes the freedom to disassociate with those a group had formerly welcomed.  So yeah, freedom can be dangerous and it can cause problems, yet it is generally better than the alternative.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2014, 11:06:44 PM »

Okay, organizations with independent executive authority like marching band can basically determine their own membership standards as much as they want, right? I see no problem for them to exclude a person based on the fact that other members of the organization don't feel comfortable around him due to allegations made against him. It's their own call.
So if they (or some small set of them, or even just one of them) doesn't feel comfortable around the new AltoSax player because they're Muslim, they should have the ability to exclude them?  That seems like a dangerous road to go down.
It's called freedom of association.  You can't have freedom of association without having the freedom to not associate, and that also includes the freedom to disassociate with those a group had formerly welcomed.  So yeah, freedom can be dangerous and it can cause problems, yet it is generally better than the alternative.

^^^

Also religion is a protected status whereas "has been accused of committing rape" is not
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dead0man
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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2014, 11:14:00 PM »

Also religion is a protected status whereas "has been accused of committing rape" is not
What's to stop them from accusing the Muslim of rape?
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© tweed
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2014, 11:52:58 PM »

Does the difference in severity between locking a guy up for 20 years, and expelling him from a school, or a marching band, make no difference at all in our willingness to apply remedies?

the standard of proof necessary does not change based on the potential consequences to the accused.  both misdemeanor pot possession and murder call for the same standard of proof in the criminal system.

but, ultimately, it's a silly debate, because it's all about where our sympathies lie.   I'd like to see private power used to further the rights of the accused and due process rights of employees, you might want to see it used to punish individuals who "more likely than not" are rapists.  and the undemocratic institutions, set up for the express purpose of profit, will take the course of action that will be best for their bottom line. degenerated democracy.
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Beet
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 11:58:10 PM »

Does the difference in severity between locking a guy up for 20 years, and expelling him from a school, or a marching band, make no difference at all in our willingness to apply remedies?

the standard of proof necessary does not change based on the potential consequences to the accused.  both misdemeanor pot possession and murder call for the same standard of proof in the criminal system.

Yes but murder is a much more serious crime than pot possession, and the differential penalties reflect that. Here we are talking about remedies of a radically different nature for the same crime.

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Fair enough, the system is by no means consistent now, I'll grant that.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2014, 01:09:42 AM »

     It would probably win easily as a moderate hero answer, but I would be interested to see a poll with "clear and convincing" as an option.
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2014, 11:57:03 AM »

what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?

Option 3: campus justice systems shouldn't have jurisdiction over violent crime. All sexual assaults, regardless of where they take place, should be dealt with in the criminal justice system. I realize that in many places, the police/judicial system response to sexual assault is inadequate, but on the whole it's much better than school administrators who have a very real incentive to cover up or minimize sexual assault.
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Person Man
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« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2014, 12:59:03 PM »

     It would probably win easily as a moderate hero answer, but I would be interested to see a poll with "clear and convincing" as an option.
Yesser.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2014, 07:06:12 PM »


Great way for an LSU fan to win a football game by canning the other team's starting quarterback.
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Mordecai
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« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2014, 02:39:13 PM »

I think of preponderance of the evidence as the standard for civil cases, where the harm is monetary and the ultimate result is not a punishment per se.  The classic example is two people fighting over money in a contract, what is at stake is basically parallel for the two parties.  Beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard when the accusation is that you're a "criminal" and your freedom is potentially on the line.   

Essentially, deciding between those standards requires that you look at both what is at stake if you get it wrong.  Wrongly labelling someone a rapist and destroying their reputation and future career is really serious business.  That isn't something I would do because I was 50.1% sure they were guilty.  Wrongly forcing someone to pay $1000 damages in a traffic accident is just of a different order of magnitude. 

So, I would go with a reasonable doubt or clear and convincing evidence standard.  As much as rape is horrible and is a major problem in society, you can't throw away basic fairness and due process.  Fairness requires that you treat every accused person, not as a statistic or probably emblematic of the rape problem on college campuses, but as a human being entitled to a presumption of innocence and a fair process.

This.
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