Opinion of Ho Chi Minh

[IceSpear]

HP (normal).

[Bigby]

HP. The only good Communist dictator is - Wait, there are no good Communist dictators.

[freefair]

HP. The only good Communist dictator is - Wait, there are no good Communist dictators.

Tito came very close, though!

[Bigby]

HP. The only good Communist dictator is - Wait, there are no good Communist dictators.

Tito came very close, though!

Sometimes there are exceptions to the rule. I would not have supported his rule, but I do admire Tito for having the balls to give Stalin the middle finger.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

HP is the correct answer.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Major HP, but I don't think he ranks with the worst of the Cold War by a long shot.

[politicus]

HP is the correct answer.

Well, he surely was a HP in many ways, but also a literal FF, so both must be the correct answer.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Certainly better than any of the thugs in the South.

[dead0man]

HP is the correct answer.

Well, he surely was a HP in many ways, but also a literal FF, so both must be the correct answer.

Well, sort of.  He fought hard and well for his people, that's commendable.  He was also a liar and a Commie and did all the things liars and Commies always do (murdered many thousands of people for the horrible thing of disagreeing with him).  He was fighting, but not for any freedom.

[Beet]

HP, a symbol of backwardness.

[tpfkaw]

HP. The only good Communist dictator is - Wait, there are no good Communist dictators.

Deng Xiaoping was quite good given the circumstances.

[Wake Me Up When The Hard Border Ends]

Communist = Automatic HP.

[tpfkaw]

Communist = Automatic HP.

Eh, I have similar sentiments, but that's a bit too reductive. Whittaker Chambers redeemed himself and became a definite FF in my book. Even certain unrepentant communists, for example George Orwell, can qualify for FF status on balance. (In Orwell's case because his best-known work was de facto anti-communist, despite his actually being a communist).

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Even certain unrepentant communists, for example George Orwell, can qualify for FF status on balance.

Lol.

[politicus]

HP is the correct answer.

Well, he surely was a HP in many ways, but also a literal FF, so both must be the correct answer.

Well, sort of.  He fought hard and well for his people, that's commendable.  He was also a liar and a Commie and did all the things liars and Commies always do (murdered many thousands of people for the horrible thing of disagreeing with him).  He was fighting, but not for any freedom.

Freedom is not a 100% objective thing, its mostly a feeling, and freedom from foreign rule and interference was a thing the Vietnamese cared passionately about.
Which is why measuring national liberation struggle leaders from Third World countries with very different norms is pointless. Ho certainly fought what most Vietnamese considered colonial and imperialist oppression which made him a FF in their eyes.

Voted HP in the poll, but he is objectively a FF since national freedom - measured as a negative freedom (=freedom from foreign rule) - is a thing.  

[SWE]

FF

[dead0man]

HP is the correct answer.

Well, he surely was a HP in many ways, but also a literal FF, so both must be the correct answer.

Well, sort of.  He fought hard and well for his people, that's commendable.  He was also a liar and a Commie and did all the things liars and Commies always do (murdered many thousands of people for the horrible thing of disagreeing with him).  He was fighting, but not for any freedom.

Freedom is not a 100% objective thing, its mostly a feeling, and freedom from foreign rule and interference was a thing the Vietnamese cared passionately about.
Which is why measuring national liberation struggle leaders from Third World countries with very different norms is pointless. Ho certainly fought what most Vietnamese considered colonial and imperialist oppression which made him a FF in their eyes.

Most?  Probably not.  Certainly not the ones he imprisoned or murdered for having the gall to disagree with him.  Nor the millions he forced to stay in the north when he and French divided the country up.  Seems he did a lot of fighting against freedom and his own people.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The division of Vietnam (and forcing Vietnam to stay divided) was entirely the fault of France, then the United States.

George Orwell was a socialist who served in a Trotskyist brigade in the Spanish Civil War (which is where he started hating Stalinism), but as far as I know he did not consider himself a communist at any point. Though given the rogues gallery of reactionaries, royals, plutocrats, and petty dictators wormyguy probably loves (he seems to have gone full-throttle on the "anti-democratic libertarian" thing), I shouldn't take his opinion too seriously.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Orwell was never a Communist of any description and after his experiences in Spain was noted for his active hostility towards Communists. He was a member of the Independent Labour Party* in the 1930s and it's through the ILP link that he fought for the POUM in Spain. Orwell left the ILP in 1939 in response to the pacifist line it took over the war. He was subsequently a Labour supporter, though his activities never went beyond a bit of canvassing in 1945 (despite a suggestion that he should stand as a candidate in a 'hopeless' seat in the London suburbs). When he informed on suspected Communists in the late 40s he did so with no shame and actually regarded it as his patriotic duty. Americans might be interested to learn that he regarded Henry Wallace as a crypto-communist and hoped he would perform badly in the 1948 Presidential election.

_{*The ILP was a very left wing socialist party but was never even properly Marxist let alone Communist; attempts by fellow travellers to take it over had actually been thwarted in the 1920s. It was opposed to capitalism, but mostly on the grounds that capitalism was immoral.}

[TDAS04]

Massive, murderous HP of course, but so was Diem. 

[H. Ross Peron]

Massive, murderous HP of course, but so was Diem. 

[Cory]

HP is the correct answer.

Well, he surely was a HP in many ways, but also a literal FF, so both must be the correct answer.

[tpfkaw]

By the standards of who gets called a "fascist" or a "Nazi sympathizer," George Orwell was most certainly a "communist." (You may notice I did not call him a capital-C Communist). He was involved in far-left politics until the day he died, thought that the problem in Russia was that they'd deviated too much from the path of Lenin and Trotsky, and actually was willing to kill or be killed for the cause of Trotskyism. I said that I consider him to have been a positive influence on balance, so I'm not sure what people's problem is. (Other than the discovery, which I fail to realize because I'm so stupid, that nobody anywhere has ever been a "communist." For example, the initial subject of this thread was, in fact, a "nationalist.")

[courts]

to be fair ho chi minh probably wasn't an actual doctrinaire commie, unlike the spergy trots. or the reds in spain. god i hate 'anarchists' and european marxists. really says something that vietnam comes across as one of the least bad countries as far as this sort of thing goes

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

For example, the initial subject of this thread was, in fact, a "nationalist."

He was both, but his nationalism was the greater priority.