Motion to expel Senator Deus from the Senate (Failed)
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  Motion to expel Senator Deus from the Senate (Failed)
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Author Topic: Motion to expel Senator Deus from the Senate (Failed)  (Read 2119 times)
Lumine
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« on: October 07, 2014, 10:05:01 AM »
« edited: October 12, 2014, 04:01:05 PM by Senator Lumine (PPT) »

To be honest, I wasn't thrilled about this possibility considering that it creates a negative precedent, but after talking to several Senators (although not all managed to give their input before Tyrion being banned) I feel this is a necessary move. The Senate is a serious body, and for far too long we saw Senators unwilling to take their offices as serious having no consequences at all (Napoleon and Xahar, for example). Senator Deus, while active and a good legislator, has openly called for seccession and supported a movement that has caused the deaths of several Atlasians. That is a treasonous move, and it's time we take action on that.

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Considering the open support for seccession and the disregard for the Constitution, it's clear that there is a lack of a desire to perform the duties of the office of Senator, something made very clear by the posts of the Senator in his office.

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Hence, and by invoking Article 12, Section 1, Clause C of the Senate Rules, I motion that we expulse Deus from the Senate. If any other Senator seconds this motion, we will begin a 72 hours period of debate allowing for the Senators to make their case and for Senator Deus to defend himself, afterwhich a two-thirds vote is needed to secure expulsion.
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TNF
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2014, 10:24:00 AM »

I will not be party to this political witch hunt.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2014, 02:42:51 PM »

Second.
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Lumine
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2014, 02:59:25 PM »

Senators, the debate on this has started and it will last 72 hours.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 03:02:16 PM »

I sincerely hope the Senate considers a pardon on the behavior of Senator Deus. His level of contribution to the Senate (he's one of the best in the Senate) far exceeds the damage done by the non-existent "secession" of the Northeast.
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TNF
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2014, 03:06:17 PM »

Expelling Deus would be nothing short of an attack upon a Senator because he holds an unpopular opinion. In this case, the opinion that the Northeast should secede from the Republic. This would set a bad precedent that could, if left unchecked, allow the center to expel all those who do not conform to what they define as the acceptable field of debate. If Deus is expelled, what is to stop JCL from being expelled? What is to stop me from being expelled? The three of us obviously hold views far from the mainstream, and so I'm rightfully concerned here that any such action will be but an opening move to expel all those with whom the political mainstream has a disagreement.

I ask the Senate to dismiss these politically-motivated charges against the Senator. Expelling Deus would extinguish what is left of Atlasian democratic procedure and the entirety of what remains of public respect for the Senate as a body that represents their interests.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 03:09:29 PM »

My feeling is, he didn't just advocate for it, he attempted it. I'm not saying Deus has been a bad Senator (We disagree on just about everything, but he is still an able member). I'm not even saying he should be banned from running again. My opinion is, and I feel this very strongly, that anyone who attempts an illegal secession, especially continuing in it after the blanket pardon was granted by the President, should be punished in some manner.

If I had attempted such a thing, I'd expect to be punished and so should anyone else. These types of things have consequences, or at least should in the game. I'm not saying it should even be a long term expulsion, but it should be done to let people know that actions in this game have consequences. For far too long we've just gone along to get along. No one, no matter how talented they may be, should be immune from that.
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TNF
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 03:17:18 PM »

What are you talking about? "Long term expulsion"? What we are discussing here is expelling Deus from the Senate, period. This isn't something that we can apply a certain amount of time for, as far as I understand the expulsion process. He can't just be expelled for a month and then take up his position again. That's not how expulsion works. If we vote to expel him, he is removed from the Senate, that's how this thing goes.

The fact that Deus is an At-Large Senator also kind of makes expulsion a waste of time, because if he is expelled, the Democratic-Republican Party could reappoint him immediately thanks to the Proportional Representation Act. If you want to waste the time of the Senate to vote on an expulsion that will likely be undone in the span of five minutes, be my guest. But understand that this action is an undemocratic attack upon the right of a Senator to speak his mind on an issue that he feels passionate about. Speech advocating for the secession of a Region should not be the grounds for the expulsion of an Atlasian Senator anymore than calling for the overthrow of the government should.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 03:59:47 PM »

Who has died as a result of the Northeast secession movement!?
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bore
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2014, 04:09:08 PM »

I've been looking at Deus's thread closely, and I don't think we can do this.

Deus is very careful in the thread not to say anything that could be construed as an action. Unlike certain people, he did not declare the northeast independent. Unlike certain people he did not detain anyone. All he does is express the view that the northeast would be better off independent.

Now I think this view is disastrously wrong, but, as long as he is peaceful and democratic in pursuing it, it is not treasonous.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2014, 04:12:28 PM »

No one has died, but that is not the standard we should be applying here.

I believe Deus did engage in behaviour that brought jeopardy on this Republic. While I am undecided on whether or not to support expulsion. He should be censured at the very least.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2014, 04:13:41 PM »

As someone who was in the Senate for Napoleon and Xahar, I will tell you what Xahar and Napoleon did are far more worthy of expulsion than this. They halted the ability of the Senate body to do its job.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2014, 04:19:46 PM »

As someone who was in the Senate for Napoleon and Xahar, I will tell you what Xahar and Napoleon did are far more worthy of expulsion than this. They halted the ability of the Senate body to do its job.

That really isn't the point here is it?
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Maxwell
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« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2014, 04:24:24 PM »

As someone who was in the Senate for Napoleon and Xahar, I will tell you what Xahar and Napoleon did are far more worthy of expulsion than this. They halted the ability of the Senate body to do its job.

That really isn't the point here is it?

Lumine brought up the names, I responded to it.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2014, 05:35:19 PM »

People have died, but not at the hands of Sen. Deus or the Eastern Front (that I know of). Deus seems to have retired from command of his forces before the violence in Vermont broke out. I'd also like to point out that the Ganonsyonian army has been largely peaceful on the Eastern Front, and that the Atlasian military and National Guard has perpetuated most of the atrocities that I know of.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2014, 05:45:26 PM »


The fact that Deus is an At-Large Senator also kind of makes expulsion a waste of time, because if he is expelled, the Democratic-Republican Party could reappoint him immediately thanks to the Proportional Representation Act. If you want to waste the time of the Senate to vote on an expulsion that will likely be undone in the span of five minutes, be my guest. But understand that this action is an undemocratic attack upon the right of a Senator to speak his mind on an issue that he feels passionate about. Speech advocating for the secession of a Region should not be the grounds for the expulsion of an Atlasian Senator anymore than calling for the overthrow of the government should.

Wrong, we fixed that after the Xahar mess. If he is expelled, his appointment will not be recognized for the duration of the current term. He also could not be elected in October to a regional seat either.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2014, 05:47:14 PM »

I've been looking at Deus's thread closely, and I don't think we can do this.

Deus is very careful in the thread not to say anything that could be construed as an action. Unlike certain people, he did not declare the northeast independent. Unlike certain people he did not detain anyone. All he does is express the view that the northeast would be better off independent.

Now I think this view is disastrously wrong, but, as long as he is peaceful and democratic in pursuing it, it is not treasonous.

Exactly, unless their is a post where this line was crossed, my default answer is Nay on expulsion.
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Lumine
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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2014, 06:10:09 PM »

Sorry, I had an earlier post prepared for this but I deleted it since I made a bit of a mistake.

Now, first of all, the Xahar and Napoleon comparison was a poor one and I apologize for it, but I wanted to put emphasis on Cynic's argument (which is share) of our actions having little to no consequences. If this was about political views and freedom of speech I wouldn't consider taking such a road because, as Senator TNF correctly pointed out, that would be morally wrong and it would set a terrible precedent.

My personal take based on Cranberry's updates was that Deus's movements undermined the government and went against the Constitution when that turned into the secessionist movement of the Northeast, which had caused two deaths (although those were by accident) by the time Deus stopped being associated with it and the more violent phase started. And indeed, during that period there were many calls for him to be expulsed or even accused of High Treason before the Supreme Court (a move recommended by the Department of Internal Affairs and supported by Former President Tyrion as well).

It is not my intention (I'm speaking in a purely personal level) to file this motion just because of political views because that would be ridiculous, but because I felt his acts had grave consequences during the most critical moment of the crisis. If such a view is wrong and the Senator can't be blamed for the rise of the independence movement and the accidental death of those two policemen then I would have to agree with the others, but I guess that would also open some confusion regarding the most recent storyline.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2014, 07:00:55 PM »

What are you talking about? "Long term expulsion"? What we are discussing here is expelling Deus from the Senate, period. This isn't something that we can apply a certain amount of time for, as far as I understand the expulsion process. He can't just be expelled for a month and then take up his position again. That's not how expulsion works. If we vote to expel him, he is removed from the Senate, that's how this thing goes.

The fact that Deus is an At-Large Senator also kind of makes expulsion a waste of time, because if he is expelled, the Democratic-Republican Party could reappoint him immediately thanks to the Proportional Representation Act. If you want to waste the time of the Senate to vote on an expulsion that will likely be undone in the span of five minutes, be my guest. But understand that this action is an undemocratic attack upon the right of a Senator to speak his mind on an issue that he feels passionate about. Speech advocating for the secession of a Region should not be the grounds for the expulsion of an Atlasian Senator anymore than calling for the overthrow of the government should.

By long term expulsion, what my argument is, is essentially that even if we expel him, I'm not saying that he should be prevented from holding office again.

If it is the Senate's decision that he should remain, that's fine with me, but I won't be voting for it. Actions of these kinds have to have consequences. Senator Deus, in my view, did aid the NE secessionist movement, despite being a sitting member of the Atlasian government. If that is not the majority opinion, then there's nothing I can do. But it is right in my view to have this discussion and it is right in my view that there should be consequences for any sitting member of government that aids a movement designed to harm the Republic that he is sworn to protect.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2014, 06:12:02 AM »

This is patently ridiculous.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2014, 09:18:34 PM »

I have given this a lot of thought.

I believe that Deus did encourage activity that sought to willingly undermine our country. This cannot and should not be swept under the rug. Referring to this as purely a matter of free-speech is naive.

However, as far as I'm concerned, he fundamentally brought himself disrepute not the Senate, which I believe is the primary driver for such a move.

I vote NAY on expulsion, but I will move a censure motion against Senator Deus and call on the Atlasian people to make the final decision as to whether someone advocating such views deserves to remain in the Senate.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2014, 12:08:10 AM »

I can appreciate and respect the views of those who don't believe Senator Deus should be expelled. One would think too that those individuals would understand how deeply I hold my belief that he did violate the constitution, which he is sworn to uphold by engaging in and abetting the secession movement in my own home region.

This is not a personal attack on Deus, it's not a political calculation (indeed, what do I gain by this? I'm leaving at the end of the term). I want to make that as clear as possible. It is unlikely given the debate that we've heard that Deus will be expelled. I'm afraid I must stick to my gut on this issue.
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TNF
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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2014, 09:06:23 AM »

...A vote hasn't been opened guys.
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bore
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2014, 09:48:50 AM »

lol


I guess we can tell which way this is going though
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Lumine
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2014, 09:02:00 PM »

Senators, a vote has now been opened. Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.
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