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Hamster
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« on: October 08, 2014, 11:08:49 PM »
« edited: March 02, 2019, 12:38:10 PM by Hamster »

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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2014, 12:52:52 AM »

This.

Atlasia would be much more interesting with more than one country, so instead of made-up "international relations" we would actually have two or more interacting countries.

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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2014, 01:08:39 AM »

This.

Atlasia would be much more interesting with more than one country, so instead of made-up "international relations" we would actually have two or more interacting countries.


     When the whole consolidation thing blew up, I toyed with the idea of eliminating the federal government, and this was the rationale that inspired me. Having multiple countries interacting and responding to each other would be so cool.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2014, 09:09:12 AM »

I concur!  It should be broken up into 5 countries, with each region having their own separate laws and such.  But everytime I've presented this idea, it's gone nowhere; abolishing all of the regional governments in favor of just the federal one has been more popular over time.  That said, if people liked having foreign policy in this most recent revolution, I don't see why we couldn't try floating a national abolition again.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2014, 11:21:09 AM »

The thing is, a ten-person senate is probably the best makeup for a legislature. We can't sustain five 10-person senates, and with smaller legislative bodies it's hard to keep interest up.
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2014, 01:11:53 PM »

Has establishing an Atlasia or two across the pond been considered yet?
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2014, 01:37:48 PM »

The thing is, a ten-person senate is probably the best makeup for a legislature. We can't sustain five 10-person senates, and with smaller legislative bodies it's hard to keep interest up.

There are five at-large seats at the moment and five regional seats, right?  Why couldn't we just remove two seats (one regional and one at-large) each time a region chose to secede.  I'm not advocating secession or even saying you're necessarily wrong about the ideal size of the Senate.  My point is simply that there is a relatively easy and logical fix if Senate size is your concern.  Another hypothetical possibility would be for each region to become it's own country (with a 3-5 person Assembly as it's sole legislative body) which would eliminate the need for a federal Senate.  Again, I want to stress that I'm not advocating secession; I'm merely considering how the game could adapt structurally to the secession of one or more regions.
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bore
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2014, 01:40:42 PM »

The thing is, a ten-person senate is probably the best makeup for a legislature. We can't sustain five 10-person senates, and with smaller legislative bodies it's hard to keep interest up.

There are five at-large seats at the moment and five regional seats, right?  Why couldn't we just remove two seats (one regional and one at-large) each time a region chose to secede.  I'm not advocating secession or even saying you're necessarily wrong about the ideal size of the Senate.  My point is simply that there is a relatively easy and logical fix if Senate size is your concern.  Another hypothetical possibility would be for each region to become it's own country (with a 3-5 person Assembly as it's sole legislative body) which would eliminate the need for a federal Senate.  Again, I want to stress that I'm not advocating secession; I'm merely considering how the game could adapt structurally to the secession of one or more regions.

You aren't reading Hagrid properly.

He's saying that if all of the regions were to be different countries, then they'd each have their own 10 member senates, which would mean at least 50 active players.

Now I think you could probably make do with a 6 person legislature, but you'd also need to factor in governors, justices among other things, so the point still stands.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2014, 02:01:39 PM »

I don't understand the point at all.  We'd get rid of the national government, and, presumably, do nothing to the regional governments, except maybe add some sort of Foreign Policy position to all of them.  We'd also need one or two people at the "national" (now international) level to adjucate conflicts between countries.  How could this lead to an increase in offices?
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2014, 04:10:45 PM »

The thing is, a ten-person senate is probably the best makeup for a legislature. We can't sustain five 10-person senates, and with smaller legislative bodies it's hard to keep interest up.

There are five at-large seats at the moment and five regional seats, right?  Why couldn't we just remove two seats (one regional and one at-large) each time a region chose to secede.  I'm not advocating secession or even saying you're necessarily wrong about the ideal size of the Senate.  My point is simply that there is a relatively easy and logical fix if Senate size is your concern.  Another hypothetical possibility would be for each region to become it's own country (with a 3-5 person Assembly as it's sole legislative body) which would eliminate the need for a federal Senate.  Again, I want to stress that I'm not advocating secession; I'm merely considering how the game could adapt structurally to the secession of one or more regions.

You aren't reading Hagrid properly.

He's saying that if all of the regions were to be different countries, then they'd each have their own 10 member senates, which would mean at least 50 active players.

Now I think you could probably make do with a 6 person legislature, but you'd also need to factor in governors, justices among other things, so the point still stands.

Couldn't a five person Senate work just as well?  That way you only need 25 active players.  It is still a lot, but it seems much more doable.
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bore
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2014, 04:14:25 PM »

The thing is, a ten-person senate is probably the best makeup for a legislature. We can't sustain five 10-person senates, and with smaller legislative bodies it's hard to keep interest up.

There are five at-large seats at the moment and five regional seats, right?  Why couldn't we just remove two seats (one regional and one at-large) each time a region chose to secede.  I'm not advocating secession or even saying you're necessarily wrong about the ideal size of the Senate.  My point is simply that there is a relatively easy and logical fix if Senate size is your concern.  Another hypothetical possibility would be for each region to become it's own country (with a 3-5 person Assembly as it's sole legislative body) which would eliminate the need for a federal Senate.  Again, I want to stress that I'm not advocating secession; I'm merely considering how the game could adapt structurally to the secession of one or more regions.

You aren't reading Hagrid properly.

He's saying that if all of the regions were to be different countries, then they'd each have their own 10 member senates, which would mean at least 50 active players.

Now I think you could probably make do with a 6 person legislature, but you'd also need to factor in governors, justices among other things, so the point still stands.

Couldn't a five person Senate work just as well?  That way you only need 25 active players.  It is still a lot, but it seems much more doable.

Sure. You could probably get by with each region's assembly just being converted to their legislature, maybe adding an extra seat or two for returning cabinet members/ senators. A legislature of 10 or 8 or even 6 is basically impervious to being crippled by inactivity like so many regions have at some point been, which I think is hagrid's point.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2014, 04:35:34 PM »

The activity of most regional legislatures in comparison to the national legislature, even when fully staffed, is usually anemic. If you got rid of the federal government you'd free up about a dozen (ostensibly) active offices. That's not enough to make five different countries bustling and the logistics involved in managing five different countries with absolutely any basis in reality (GM-like positions, separate supreme courts with more than just one person on staff) would completely burn people out and stretch active people even further than we have now.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2014, 04:37:38 PM »

The activity of most regional legislatures in comparison to the national legislature, even when fully staffed, is usually anemic. If you got rid of the federal government you'd free up about a dozen (ostensibly) active offices. That's not enough to make five different countries bustling and the logistics involved in managing five different countries with absolutely any basis in reality (GM-like positions, separate supreme courts with more than just one person on staff) would completely burn people out and stretch active people even further than we have now.

So what do you propose we do instead?
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2014, 04:45:28 PM »

The activity of most regional legislatures in comparison to the national legislature, even when fully staffed, is usually anemic. If you got rid of the federal government you'd free up about a dozen (ostensibly) active offices. That's not enough to make five different countries bustling and the logistics involved in managing five different countries with absolutely any basis in reality (GM-like positions, separate supreme courts with more than just one person on staff) would completely burn people out and stretch active people even further than we have now.

So what do you propose we do instead?

Nothing. If a region wants to secede then obviously they should be free to vote on doing so, but I am not one to hop on flavor of the week ideas, and I've seen plenty.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2014, 04:56:54 PM »

The activity of most regional legislatures in comparison to the national legislature, even when fully staffed, is usually anemic. If you got rid of the federal government you'd free up about a dozen (ostensibly) active offices. That's not enough to make five different countries bustling and the logistics involved in managing five different countries with absolutely any basis in reality (GM-like positions, separate supreme courts with more than just one person on staff) would completely burn people out and stretch active people even further than we have now.

So what do you propose we do instead?

Nothing. If a region wants to secede then obviously they should be free to vote on doing so, but I am not one to hop on flavor of the week ideas, and I've seen plenty.

So if you were President and one or more regions did vote to secede, you'd have no problem with that?  How would your administration deal with such a scenario?  What if a state voted to join a different region?  As for doing nothing, we've essentially been trying that for quite some time and things have gotten progressively worse.  
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2014, 05:02:59 PM »

If a region wants to secede, and they hold a referendum wherein a majority of the population votes to secede, then they should be free to do so.

As for a state changing allegiances, from a game-perspective, this is simply not a box you want to open. The nature of Atlasia is such that one or two people alone could change a states' allegiances under such a system. You'd just have a constant game of musical chairs and people in charge of making the game actually work would get nothing but a headache. It's why we have regional consent for boundary changes.
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bore
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2014, 05:10:06 PM »

If a region wants to secede, and they hold a referendum wherein a majority of the population votes to secede, then they should be free to do so.

As for a state changing allegiances, from a game-perspective, this is simply not a box you want to open. The nature of Atlasia is such that one or two people alone could change a states' allegiances under such a system. You'd just have a constant game of musical chairs and people in charge of making the game actually work would get nothing but a headache. It's why we have regional consent for boundary changes.

Unfortunately that's not true. The Plebisicite Clause Removal Amendment only passed two regions, so the constitution still reads: A State by plebiscite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2014, 05:20:32 PM »

If a region wants to secede, and they hold a referendum wherein a majority of the population votes to secede, then they should be free to do so.

As for a state changing allegiances, from a game-perspective, this is simply not a box you want to open. The nature of Atlasia is such that one or two people alone could change a states' allegiances under such a system. You'd just have a constant game of musical chairs and people in charge of making the game actually work would get nothing but a headache. It's why we have regional consent for boundary changes.

Unfortunately that's not true. The Plebisicite Clause Removal Amendment only passed two regions, so the constitution still reads: A State by plebiscite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.

You misunderstand me, I wasn't arguing against the way things are structured right now, merely against a theoretical system where a state could decide if it wanted to switch regions purely based on its own inhabitants. My point was that such a system would be a terrific headache, and we have things in place now to prevent that from happening because many states only have a one, two, or three citizens and those shifts could, in theory, happen constantly.
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bore
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2014, 05:28:42 PM »

If a region wants to secede, and they hold a referendum wherein a majority of the population votes to secede, then they should be free to do so.

As for a state changing allegiances, from a game-perspective, this is simply not a box you want to open. The nature of Atlasia is such that one or two people alone could change a states' allegiances under such a system. You'd just have a constant game of musical chairs and people in charge of making the game actually work would get nothing but a headache. It's why we have regional consent for boundary changes.

Unfortunately that's not true. The Plebisicite Clause Removal Amendment only passed two regions, so the constitution still reads: A State by plebiscite shall be able to veto its transfer from one Region to another.

You misunderstand me, I wasn't arguing against the way things are structured right now, merely against a theoretical system where a state could decide if it wanted to switch regions purely based on its own inhabitants. My point was that such a system would be a terrific headache, and we have things in place now to prevent that from happening because many states only have a one, two, or three citizens and those shifts could, in theory, happen constantly.

But the point is, if states start to secede or even regions start to consolidate, that theoretical system is our current, very real system.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2014, 02:00:40 PM »

The thing is, a ten-person senate is probably the best makeup for a legislature. We can't sustain five 10-person senates, and with smaller legislative bodies it's hard to keep interest up.

There are five at-large seats at the moment and five regional seats, right?  Why couldn't we just remove two seats (one regional and one at-large) each time a region chose to secede.  I'm not advocating secession or even saying you're necessarily wrong about the ideal size of the Senate.  My point is simply that there is a relatively easy and logical fix if Senate size is your concern.  Another hypothetical possibility would be for each region to become it's own country (with a 3-5 person Assembly as it's sole legislative body) which would eliminate the need for a federal Senate.  Again, I want to stress that I'm not advocating secession; I'm merely considering how the game could adapt structurally to the secession of one or more regions.

You aren't reading Hagrid properly.

He's saying that if all of the regions were to be different countries, then they'd each have their own 10 member senates, which would mean at least 50 active players.

Now I think you could probably make do with a 6 person legislature, but you'd also need to factor in governors, justices among other things, so the point still stands.

Couldn't a five person Senate work just as well?  That way you only need 25 active players.  It is still a lot, but it seems much more doable.

No, that's why the regions fail.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2014, 03:12:41 PM »

The thing is, a ten-person senate is probably the best makeup for a legislature. We can't sustain five 10-person senates, and with smaller legislative bodies it's hard to keep interest up.

There are five at-large seats at the moment and five regional seats, right?  Why couldn't we just remove two seats (one regional and one at-large) each time a region chose to secede.  I'm not advocating secession or even saying you're necessarily wrong about the ideal size of the Senate.  My point is simply that there is a relatively easy and logical fix if Senate size is your concern.  Another hypothetical possibility would be for each region to become it's own country (with a 3-5 person Assembly as it's sole legislative body) which would eliminate the need for a federal Senate.  Again, I want to stress that I'm not advocating secession; I'm merely considering how the game could adapt structurally to the secession of one or more regions.

You aren't reading Hagrid properly.

He's saying that if all of the regions were to be different countries, then they'd each have their own 10 member senates, which would mean at least 50 active players.

Now I think you could probably make do with a 6 person legislature, but you'd also need to factor in governors, justices among other things, so the point still stands.

Couldn't a five person Senate work just as well?  That way you only need 25 active players.  It is still a lot, but it seems much more doable.

No, that's why the regions fail.

Except the regions are also competing with the federal Senate, the cabinet, and the Supreme Court for active players.  We don't know how new countries would structure their governments.  For example, what if the Northeast only had a Chief Judicial Officer or something instead of a Supreme Court?  Plus, you throw in the former regional Senator and an unknown number of federal officials/immigrants, and who knows?  I think a region seceding and forming it's own country would be entering uncharted territory and it'd be a mistake to assume it'd fail just because the regions don't all work perfectly (and let's not pretend all regions have had the same amount of trouble with things like activity, it varies quite a bit and most regions have had their ups and downs).
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2014, 06:10:58 PM »

SPC ran on a platform of abolishing the Federal Gov't and won because of it, literally.

Don't blame me, my vote was invalidated that election. The real culprit is ILV. Tongue
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2014, 06:48:24 PM »

Someone (either in this thread or another one, but I don't care to look for it) was suggesting a "new system" where we had 3 countries that each existed alongside one another and that it was a great idea. Pretty sure that is in effect the same thing as consolidation, and pretty sure they opposed those efforts, lol.
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