Is Homosexuality a sin?

[GaussLaw]

Option 2.

I am very surprised by these results.

This subforum is by no means a microcosm of the whole forum.

[GaussLaw]

Why are we having this thread?

Why not?  If one believes in a religion, isn't it important to discuss what one believes is right and wrong according to said religion?  If one takes the Bible seriously, then this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion.


As for my two cents, here's my take:
1) Homosexual attraction would be loosely a sin only in the sense of Jesus saying "If you even look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery in your heart."  The same would apply for homosexuals, but this is hardly on the same class of sins as others.  Temptation may even be a better word, in my opinion.  Jesus Christ's Gospel is the fulfillment of the Law, which prescribed punishments for full-blown actions rather than just thoughts. Jesus indeed "raised the bar" (in addition to hating your brother = murder) and thus this would be applied to homosexual relations as well, but again, having a crush on a woman is not vehemently condemned by anyone, so for a Christian to do the same is pure hypocrisy and self-righteousness.  This basically takes Option 1 off the table, unless one is using a very literal definition of "sin" as something completely all-encompassing.
2) If one consider's Paul's works canonical, then the injunctions against homosexual sex are fairly clear, though context can be debated.  I think there are a few verses about being given over to unnatural affections [Romans 1:26] that hit home.  If one doesn't consider Paul's works canonical, in part or in totality, they are treading on dangerous ground with regard to scripture. 

After all, 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives."

[GaussLaw]

You just have to use your common sense. Society will always change and hopefully improve and progress, but we'll never have any information about what God wants or even whether God exists.  So, it makes sense to just make your religion fall in line with being a decent human being, or else just keep it to yourself.  It's the same with how Christianity in the civilized world has moved past the idea that witchcraft is a thing.  Maybe God is super, super pissed at America for not burning witches.  That's doesn't mean we should set middle aged women on fire or mistreat gay people just to be sure.  

That's the thing about religion.  It's not about these specific rules, it's about spirituality and the ritual aspect.  So, when the rules are clearly wrong, just change them for crying out loud.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the "common sense" and "decent human being" are incredibly nebulous things.

I don't understand what you mean by that.  Secular ethics or reasoning isn't black and white like reading a hadith and saying, alcohol is haram.  But, it's in no way nebulous.  Spirituality is the more nebulous things actually, because it's all based on individual's feelings.

That's the problem with being too religious.  You're looking to a religion for black and white answers because it's comforting.  But, there's a very dark side that kind of fundamentalist thinking, which is when your black and white answer is wrong, like it is about gay people.  I don't see what so hard about this one though, sexuality shouldn't be the focus of your religion anyhow.  Couldn't you just take the tact that sexuality isn't your business to make these judgments about?

The problem is that without God, it can be difficult to truly say what is right and wrong.  Many secular scientists advocated eugenics in the early 20th century, while those "backwards Bible thumpers" like William Jennings Bryan and those in the Catholic church opposed it.  Advocates of eugenics thought they were acting in people's best interests by preventing the birth of 'defective' children.  


The bottom line is that the Bible has multiple verses against homosexuality, in the Old and the New Testament.  Furthermore, even if someone is "born" gay, that is OK; rather, it is the act of homosexual sex that is sinful.  Gays can still marry the opposite sex, as sexual preference is generally  not truly binary.  Furthermore, homosexual sex is a mockery of God's design for procreation, if one takes the Bible to be the truth of God's word.  Because I do, I believe that homosexuality is wrong.  And while secularists may love to keep making their own moral code, I'll stick with my old time religion, and it's good enough for me.

EDIT:  The idea that a religion must change their views to meet society's changing whims flies in the face of anyone who takes that religious text seriously.  Both the OT and the NT are very critical of the whims of the world; believers are exhorted to trust God and his word, not the capricious views of mankind.

[GaussLaw]

The problem is that without God, it can be difficult to truly say what is right and wrong.  Many secular scientists advocated eugenics in the early 20th century, while those "backwards Bible thumpers" like William Jennings Bryan and those in the Catholic church opposed it.  Advocates of eugenics thought they were acting in people's best interests by preventing the birth of 'defective' children. 


The bottom line is that the Bible has multiple verses against homosexuality, in the Old and the New Testament.  Furthermore, even if someone is "born" gay, that is OK; rather, it is the act of homosexual sex that is sinful.  Gays can still marry the opposite sex, as sexual preference is generally  not truly binary.  Furthermore, homosexual sex is a mockery of God's design for procreation, if one takes the Bible to be the truth of God's word.  Because I do, I believe that homosexuality is wrong.  And while secularists may love to keep making their own moral code, I'll stick with my old time religion, and it's good enough for me.

EDIT:  The idea that a religion must change their views to meet society's changing whims flies in the face of anyone who takes that religious text seriously.  Both the OT and the NT are very critical of the whims of the world; believers are exhorted to trust God and his word, not the capricious views of mankind.

This is a good example of how you shouldn't be a fundamentalist. 

You have this situation, a kid realizes that they're gay.  They feel worried about it because it's not the "normal" way to be and it can feel very isolating and scary.  Your answer for that person is to pretend that they're heterosexual, marry someone of the opposite sex and ruin two lives with one horrible decision.  Your alternative is, never have sex or any intimate romantic relationships.  That's one life ruined.  My solution is come out, have sex and relationships with someone of the same-sex and be who you are.  That's the right answer.  Anyone with actual life experience with gay family members knows that I'm right.

So, just make that moral insight a part of Christianity.  It's not that big of a deal.  All religions constantly change with society, because they're as surely a part of culture as anything else.  After all, these religious texts were written by people.  They reflect their gaps in knowledge and their often primitive culture.

Look, I want to first say that I don't think that Christianity should dictate a nation's laws, so I am not forcing gays to accept these 2 options.  Rather, I am simply saying that the religion of Christianity, as religions are based on their respective Holy Text, which in this case is the Bible, would give these 2 options.  This may not seem fair to you, but the point of a religion is often that one must give up pleasurable things in this life to inherit a reward in the next one.  Just as the prohibition of homosexual sex exists, there would also be a prohibition against extramarital sex for heterosexual people.  As I recall you being critical of prohibitions against premarital sex, you likely would call those lives "ruined" as well for straight people who don't want to marry.  And to this idea that scripture just becomes outdated, Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love me, obey my commandments."  2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 

While Christians can and do quibble about specific verses, the broader message seen in much of the Bible is that Christians should not march in tune with the world.  There are many, many Bible verses about this, and this would thus apply to people in modern day. 

If you don't agree with Christianity, that's fine.  I'm just making the case for why homosexual sex is a sin from a Bible-believing Christian point of view.