Gamergate

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Kind of tangential, but how much overlap is there between these people and actual MRAs? I'd imagine quite a bit but then again I think MRA is still pretty out there on the fringe... seems like it's used as some kind of a boogeyman term like we see with "SJW."

returnofkings and voiceformen and plenty of others are strongly supportive of gamergate, so...

The origin was basically that one game dev was using personal connections to generate positive feedback for their projects.  Basically, a "pay for good reviews" type system. 

except nathan grayson never reviewed depression quest. this has been debunked so many times ffs.

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not quite

If you actually do some research into it, like OAM above me seems to have,

lol
lol lol lol

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this last attack originated from gamergate's main board. if you want to claim gamergate is against harassment you have to actually do something about it and not just say "no it's not us it is a total coincidence that our enemies are being driven out of their homes"

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absolutely, but gamergate doesn't care about any real ethical issues

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criticism is not censorship. making games with a "feminist agenda" doesn't stop other games from being made. if anyone is attempting censorship it is gamergate, with their spam-campaigns against advertisers.

[OAM]

Oh dear, a quote tree so early in the morning.  Might take a few edits to get my formatting right.

The origin was basically that one game dev was using personal connections to generate positive feedback for their projects.  Basically, a "pay for good reviews" type system.  

except nathan grayson never reviewed depression quest. this has been debunked so many times ffs.

I wasn't talking about Nathan Grayson specifically.  There's others involved.  There's a reason some of the louder elements latched onto the Five Guys jokes so much.

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not quite

Shut out, I'll admit, may be too strong a term, but in general the media was highly resistent.  One exception doesn't mean much.

If you actually do some research into it, like OAM above me seems to have,

lol
lol lol lol

Yeah, I didn't do research.  I was paying attention when it first happened, because some idiot (aka people I allow onto my steam contacts lists because I have bad judgement sometime ) was very much taking the misogynistic route and I had to badger him to get him to stop.

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this last attack originated from gamergate's main board. if you want to claim gamergate is against harassment you have to actually do something about it and not just say "no it's not us it is a total coincidence that our enemies are being driven out of their homes"

I suppose if this thread is about an actual board called Gamergate, than you have a point here.  If this thread is about the general controversy, I'd like to humbly request permission to adopt your name and then go post opinions around the internet in your stead  Ditto for the next part of his post you quoted, but that I've removed here for space concerns.

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criticism is not censorship. making games with a "feminist agenda" doesn't stop other games from being made. if anyone is attempting censorship it is gamergate, with their spam-campaigns against advertisers.
[/quote]

It apparently does if you're in competition with Zoe Quinn, though.  Personally I don't care one way or the other about Depression Question, and all the rational people I've talked to regarding this don't either.  The merits or demerits of her game have nothing to do with anything besides her own abilities as a game designer.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

On the bright side, the ad revenue from the corrupt institutions is way down, for a variety of reasons.

http://www.statshow.com/www/polygon.com (etc)
actually they're all recovering, thank the gods

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clearly you (and they) didn't actually read any of the articles. i did. i was not offended.

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are you? i would think any real feminist would care more about women being driven out of their houses and/or careers than about perceived slights against straight white male gamers. i'd like to remind you also that like half the movement constantly rants about "getting feminism/sjws out of our video games" or w/e

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fact: gamergate's persecution complex is even more ridiculous than fundie christians'.

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actually polygon/kotaku/rps were mostly targeted at gamers who are interested in social commentary to begin with. gamasutra is targeted at developers. and again if you were insulted by the articles then you're proving their point.

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how the hell did zoë quinn "hijack feminism"

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this is again a claim that has been made dozens of times with little to no evidence

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http://socialjusticeviv.tumblr.com/post/98412304682/the-fine-young-capitalists-arent-actually-helping
in particular:

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also https://storify.com/jbradfield/zoe-quinn-re-tfyc

The origin was basically that one game dev was using personal connections to generate positive feedback for their projects.  Basically, a "pay for good reviews" type system. 

except nathan grayson never reviewed depression quest. this has been debunked so many times ffs.

I wasn't talking about Nathan Grayson specifically.  There's others involved.  There's a reason some of the louder elements latched onto the Five Guys jokes so much.

none of them reviewed depression quest.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/depression-quest

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not quite

[/quote]

Shut out, I'll admit, may be too strong a term, but in general the media was highly resistent.  One exception doesn't mean much.[/quote]
read the article pls

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this last attack originated from gamergate's main board. if you want to claim gamergate is against harassment you have to actually do something about it and not just say "no it's not us it is a total coincidence that our enemies are being driven out of their homes"

[/quote]

I suppose if this thread is about an actual board called Gamergate, than you have a point here.  If this thread is about the general controversy, I'd like to humbly request permission to adopt your name and then go post opinions around the internet in your stead   Ditto for the next part of his post you quoted, but that I've removed here for space concerns.[/quote]
yes this one
the doxxer didn't even get banned

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criticism is not censorship. making games with a "feminist agenda" doesn't stop other games from being made. if anyone is attempting censorship it is gamergate, with their spam-campaigns against advertisers.
[/quote]
It apparently does if you're in competition with Zoe Quinn, though.[/quote]

[OAM]

I will have a more comprehensive reply sometime in about 12 hours, after I have completed daily tasks and such that cannot be put on hold.  Unless, of course, I may I bill you for my lost productivity of missing today's meeting, which would be rather pricey.

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clearly you (and they) didn't actually read any of the articles. i did. i was not offended.

Nope, the articles were definitely read.  There was quite a bit of back handedness as passive aggressiveness in those articles.  I am not saying this as a form of attack, but may I inquire to how familiar you are with the English language?  The most active person on my contacts list who enjoys discussing this issue is German/Dutch and when he was reading them he appeared slightly confused as to the tone of what was written.  

Quote
As a gamer, I'd like to take a moment to say up yours too Kotaku, I'm more feminist than you are.
are you? i would think any real feminist would care more about women being driven out of their houses and/or careers than about perceived slights against straight white male gamers. i'd like to remind you also that like half the movement constantly rants about "getting feminism/sjws out of our video games" or w/e

Fun fact, I can be concerned about both.  I believe in making sure ALL wrongs are corrected.

I'm also not a straight white male.  I could say much on the subject, but let's just say it's *very personal* and I'm not ready to talk about it in public.  (And not, it's not about the straight part.  I've been flippantly bi for awhile)

Quote
  It's amazingly easy to find opposition when you make blanket statements insulting people.
fact: gamergate's persecution complex is even more ridiculous than fundie christians'.

[/quote]

I find it odd that a concept rather than a group can have a persecution complex.  Honestly, can you clarify what your statements mean.  I gather there's some sort of board that's formed to discuss the controversy, and that it may have attracted one segment of the population over others, but personally I've not kept up with any of the people who have exposed extremist beliefs one way or the other.

****

It is here that I have run out of time, unfortunately.  I will conclude with some general statements, however.  Lumping your comments about the gaming sites revenue/demographics together, I will say I can't comment on the revenue personally, though if there's been a change recently I will fully admit I haven't noticed that.  I'd argue with you on the demographics, though, but it's ultimately a conversation that would go nowhere.

Regarding Zoe Quinn, specifically my comment about "hijacking" feminism, which leads into the point you made right below it, I can find you more on that, but later when I have time.  

Regarding the TFYC section, I'm well aware they're not a charity.  I didn't mean to make them out to be so.  However, as a communist, these capitalists are from "the bad kind".  Furthermore, that statement you highlighted as being specifically important I hold is incorrect.  There are other sources out there saying that terms were variable and depended on if the person who pitched the idea actually had the ability to make the game as well.  I can find you more on that, but once again, after I attend to today's events.  I'll also review the rest of the statements in the link in case it's addressed, but I'm willing to wager it isn't.

On Depression Question, I don't really care about it one way or the other.  I don't know why you keep bringing it up.  Personally I'd have been satisfied with just the disclaimers that were eventually added.  As such, I've considered that issue resolved for months.  Before you again say "none of them reviewed Depression Question", the people that DID did have connections, or else they wouldn't need the disclaimer that the journalists were actually relatively eager to put up, now would they?

And now that I get to this last section here, I see the board you're talking about.  Yeah, probably best if that goes away.  Doesn't solve the problem though.  Believe it or not, it's possible for EVERYONE to be wrong, and it actually happens more often than not.  I don't consider that the same issue though, it's a separate issue.  Separate issues deserve separate, individual, and tailor made attention.

[Adam Griffin]

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

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clearly you (and they) didn't actually read any of the articles. i did. i was not offended.

Nope, the articles were definitely read.  There was quite a bit of back handedness as passive aggressiveness in those articles.  I am not saying this as a form of attack, but may I inquire to how familiar you are with the English language?  The most active person on my contacts list who enjoys discussing this issue is German/Dutch and when he was reading them he appeared slightly confused as to the tone of what was written. 

i lived in the u.s. more than half of my life. my english is fine. why don't you go through one of the articles and tell me what parts you consider to be "attacking all gamers"

...for that matter, kotaku's article explicitly says:

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are you? i would think any real feminist would care more about women being driven out of their houses and/or careers than about perceived slights against straight white male gamers. i'd like to remind you also that like half the movement constantly rants about "getting feminism/sjws out of our video games" or w/e
[/quote]
Fun fact, I can be concerned about both.  I believe in making sure ALL wrongs are corrected.[/quote]

if gamergate continues, the harassment continues. the harassment would not have happened without gamergate. this is undeniable. thus, by supporting gamergate you are implicitly prioritising flimsy conspiracy-theories about video-game journalism over the real and horrifying results of a deeply toxic culture.

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you know what i meant. the vast majority of the people who were offended were straight white males (*chan sockpuppets notwithstanding)

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fact: gamergate's persecution complex is even more ridiculous than fundie christians'.
[/quote]
I find it odd that a concept rather than a group can have a persecution complex.  Honestly, can you clarify what your statements mean.  I gather there's some sort of board that's formed to discuss the controversy, and that it may have attracted one segment of the population over others, but personally I've not kept up with any of the people who have exposed extremist beliefs one way or the other.[/quote]

oh, they're just full of it.
http://www.donotlink.com/bfvx
https://twitter.com/official_socjus/status/520282297493626881
https://twitter.com/nitramy/status/520248494112534528
etc etc etc

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you're the one who brought it up, oam. but yeah, purposely misnaming it is a great way to show how much you don't care.

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go ahead. i challenge you to show me a depression quest review along with evidence of the author being corrupt.

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http://inurashii.tumblr.com/post/99751399160/gamergate-and-the-golden-mean-fallacy

[OAM]

Well, I was going to check in before I headed into town, but I am disappointed in what I have found.  Honestly, if you're going to accuse me of supporting sexism, I'm going to accuse you of making assumptions about me and not arguing in good faith.  That typo was because I've been pulling an all nighter for a grad final/midterm.  Rather than make assumptions about you, I actually asked, regarding the language.  The lack of capitalization had me questioning, but I thought we could keep this civil.  I honestly can't say I believe your "you know what I meant." comment.  As someone who's coming to terms with the beginning stages of becoming trans, you've really made me rethink how welcoming the world is, and not for the better.  I just want to tell you, you are not helping "the culture".  I've never used the ignore user feature before, but I think this is the time to start.  I bid this topic farewell.  If anyone feels like discussion can still progress civilly, you know where to find me.

[Simfan34]

What is this, and why is it important?

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

i want to apologise if i have come off as rude or overly short... i've been reading and arguing about this stuff for over a month now and some people... some people are awful, let's just say.

i would like to say that i made no assumptions about your gender, oam, nor about whether you personally are sexist. but if you're not sexist and you're supporting gamergate, you are in the wrong place.

http://ellorgast.tumblr.com/post/99422454733/gamergate-throwing-its-own-trans-supporters-under-a-bus

gamergate is not a movement welcoming of women or feminists. its claims of fighting for ethics in video-game journalism have long since collapsed and it is now mostly dedicated to stamping out feminism in gaming. please, please, reconsider your views.

[edit: this is entirely inadequate. i have contacted oam via private message to properly apologise]

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

What is this, and why is it important?

gawker has a decent summary.
as to why it's important, three women have been forced to flee their homes and countless more have been pressured out of the industry. given how underrepresented women in tech were to begin with, ...

[Foucaulf]

I will say that internet arguments naturally incline toward shouting matches and anger; facial gestures and tone carry important information that are intended to moderate things. Nor do search engine algorithms make it easy for us to look up developments in past events. These factors could explain why this Gamergate thing has gotten so shouty, and especially because it remains a strictly online movement.

With that out of the way, the whole thing has gotten quite ridiculous. It seems like the Gamergate people's side tend to ignore the particular nature of a conflict of interest due to game advertising on game websites - something that is an old, old problem - and the qualitative difference between them being criticized for what they do and death threats.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Anyone need a refill?

[OAM]

Okay, I am back, and have accepted the apology I received.  There's a lot that has been said previously, and we don't really need to resume that debate, though I will comment on the post here.  I do appreciate the PM, but the post here wasn't without merit.  On the contrary, I think it's highlighted exactly what our misunderstanding was!

I don't "support gamergate" and never have.  In my mind, simply because of the exact words used in previous conversations I've had, "gamergate" referred to the entire saga, not specifically any group involved.  I could have been a lot more clear about that.  The group in question are generally just referred to as the MRAs by those I talked to, but I generally try and avoid even that label because to me it gives them too much legitimacy as a "movement".  Not the most pragmatic of solutions for conversation, but I generally don't like to group people because part of what gets me through the day is the hope that people who do stupid things can somehow be shown the light.

All these people issuing threats to women and worse should be tried to the fullest extent of the law and likely locked up for what they have done, and if there's some sort of forum/message board hosting this behavior it should likely be busted up promptly as well.  I haven't said that explicitly though because I didn't think it needed to be said.  To me that was so blatantly obvious I never considered it might have looked as if I'd gone off the rails.  I call people out a lot for making assumptions, as in my previous post, but it's only fair that I call myself out as well in such cases.

I'm a scholar with a specialty in legalism, and therefore I tend to get really into debates about ethics and other such fields.  Therefore the journalistic integrity implications are naturally what I'm going to, from an academic perspective, care about.  Herein lines the problem.  When I come to the Atlas, I try and maintain an academic posture when I can.  I'll fully admit, this is very silly of me, but I like it, it's fun   The Atlas is hardly a peer reviewed journal article, but it's one of the few places I can actual find quality debate on the internet (understatement) so I feel like I should make the most of it, heh.  As such, when I say I "don't care" about the other aspects of this controversy, I meant it as in "that's not the question I'm talking about right now".  In academia it's common, though generally worded better, and typically along the lines of "that's interesting, but it's outside the scope of my project".  It's okay to do, because while *I* may be ignoring it, there's other researchers who either already specialize in that field or someone with some spare time or looking for inspiration can come along and tackle it.  Yes, there's a lot of rivalry in academia, but no one person can cover everything, so we can come off kind of dismissive of subjects were not specifically addressing.   I will be the first to admit the failing of this here that I have committed in that *this method of argumentation does not translate well to casual conversation*.  My dentist asks me what I think of ISIS and I say "they're horrible."  In academia (or, as I've said, when I'm in the mood on Atlas) and someone asks me what I think of ISIS, I'll start off with a background on the region since the end of colonialism, move into the relevant trends, mention competing theories, etc etc.  I tried to to heavily focus on the latter when some aspects of this conversation really deserve the former.

[traininthedistance]

I've been staying out of this thread because I know that if I really let loose, I'd accumulate enough death points to be swiftly banned.  But I'm sure at least some of you have probably seen this comprehensive analysis/takedown of the "movement", such as it is, and those of you who haven't would do well to give it a look.  So I'll break silence to point it out.

Bottom line: Gamergate is about reactionary, misogynistic hatred.  It always was, root and branch, and the "corruption" angle is a thin fig leaf that should fool just about nobody anymore.  

Obviously I oppose it in the strongest possible terms.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Btw did anybody see the utterly deranged threat made against Utah University for hosting an Anita Sarkeesian talk? It almost makes me think those dreadful Tipper Gore-esque "Anti violent video game" people had a point...

[All Along The Watchtower]

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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/brianna-wu-and-the-human-cost-of-gamergate-every-woman-i-know-in-the-industry-is-scared/

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

What is this

Zoe Quinn (an independent game developer) allegedly (haven't kept up on the veracity of the claims but it doesn't really matter at this point, the battle lines were drawn months ago) slept with/paid other favors to video game reviewers in order to secure good reviews for her game, Depression Quest, causing a backlash by top figures in the "gaming community" (a cringeworthy phrase which both sides should stop using). Quinn, who considers herself a feminist, uses her status as a female game designer to promote her game (while pro-GG elements started to fund a kickstarter for women called the Fine Young Capitalists, likely in an attempt to cover for the sexists) who wish to design games, which sets off the sexist elements of said "gaming community" to begin personal gender-based attacks on her, some of which included violent threats against her. Major gaming journalists (and the mainstream media's limited coverage) have for the most part sided either with Quinn or simply against the attacks leveled against her.

This fight has quickly merged with the already-existing debate over the portrayal of women in video games for some reason, which have revolved around a video game critic named Anita Sarkeesian who has produced YouTube videos pointing out various examples of what she sees as sexist portrayals of women (primarily oversexualization), and threats have been leveled against her as well via Twitter.

IMO Zoe Quinn is somewhat of a self-promoter who has used the vile attacks against her for personal gain, and while video games should not be exempt from social criticism in any way, Anita Sarkeesian's videos don't seem to have very deep analysis and are really a lot like a TV Tropes page in execution. However, the nature of the reaction to both and the failure of any non-sexists who "support" Gamergate to combat said sexists prove that something about gaming culture needs to be discussed. Of course, it is highly unlikely that we will ever get an intelligent conversation and we are more likely to keep seeing more of what's going on now.

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Despite anything I might have said to the contrary above, it ultimately really isn't, at least not to me (though I casually follow it because it's all quite entertaining). The only video games I play on a regular basis at this point are grand strategy nation games (very Atlas, I know) and are somewhat outside this debate.

[they don't love you like i love you]

The problem I've always had with Anita Sarkeesian is that her videos frequently receive very well thought out and argued rebuttals, this series more than anyone else...which she conveniently ignores completely and instead highlights only the responses from mysoginistic trolls and then basically says "See this is what everyone who disagrees with me is like!"

And talking about the "gamer community" in 2014 is like talking about the "TV watching community". That term needs to go away.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I've always thought the strange thing about Sarkeesian is the contrast between the MOR content of her videos, and the incredible emotion in the wider world they provoke. Although I normally find them interesting enough, "Tropes vs Women" strike me as very standard feminist analysis. It seems ridiculous the amount of passion is poured into attacking her or obsessively weeding out her "hypocrisies". And because of that enormous backlash, "gamers" (in reality, dweebs who inexplicably believe themselves representative of all gamers, and edgy political regressives seeking a movement to co-opt), have actually vastly increased Anita's and other SJW's influence on the industry. Which is ... quite funny I guess? I find it funny.

Some rebuttals make sense, but a lot of them are made by stupids who don't seem to understand the difference between a review and a critique. Some of them made by STEMlords dissing entire academic fields flippantly almost make me embarrassed to be a science student. 

[traininthedistance]

I've always thought the strange thing about Sarkeesian is the contrast between the MOR content of her videos, and the incredible emotion in the wider world they provoke. Although I normally find them interesting enough, "Tropes vs Women" strike me as very standard feminist analysis. It seems ridiculous the amount of passion is poured into attacking her or obsessively weeding out her "hypocrisies". And because of that enormous backlash, "gamers" (in reality, dweebs who inexplicably believe themselves representative of all gamers, and edgy political regressives seeking a movement to co-opt), have actually vastly increased Anita's and other SJW's influence on the industry. Which is ... quite funny I guess? I find it funny.

Some rebuttals make sense, but a lot of them are made by stupids who don't seem to understand the difference between a review and a critique. Some of them made by STEMlords dissing entire academic fields flippantly almost make me embarrassed to be a science student. 

This, this, exactly this.  It's pretty obvious that a lot of the opposition to her is not so much directed toward the specific content of her videos, but comes from a place that tries to discredit or dismiss the very idea of cultural critique.  And that's a stance that I have an incredibly hard time respecting.

[they don't love you like i love you]

I've always thought the strange thing about Sarkeesian is the contrast between the MOR content of her videos, and the incredible emotion in the wider world they provoke. Although I normally find them interesting enough, "Tropes vs Women" strike me as very standard feminist analysis. It seems ridiculous the amount of passion is poured into attacking her or obsessively weeding out her "hypocrisies". And because of that enormous backlash, "gamers" (in reality, dweebs who inexplicably believe themselves representative of all gamers, and edgy political regressives seeking a movement to co-opt), have actually vastly increased Anita's and other SJW's influence on the industry. Which is ... quite funny I guess? I find it funny.

Some rebuttals make sense, but a lot of them are made by stupids who don't seem to understand the difference between a review and a critique. Some of them made by STEMlords dissing entire academic fields flippantly almost make me embarrassed to be a science student. 

This, this, exactly this.  It's pretty obvious that a lot of the opposition to her is not so much directed toward the specific content of her videos, but comes from a place that tries to discredit or dismiss the very idea of cultural critique.  And that's a stance that I have an incredibly hard time respecting.

Well perhaps, but that still doesn't change the fact her videos are full of overgeneralizations and inaccuracies that she never responds to when called out on and focuses only on the trolls. The "Damsel in Distress" one is incredibly bad and comically inaccurate to video games in the 21st century. Most critiques of video games in general basically assume that video games stopped evolving when the year 2000 hit.

[Chance92]

My only thoughts on the matter: hardcore gamers are psychopaths by and large, always have been, and always will be. This whole "debate" has only served to prove it to me.

[BaconBacon96]

My only thoughts on the matter: hardcore gamers are psychopaths by and large, always have been, and always will be. This whole "debate" has only served to prove it to me.

This is the kind of blatant generalization that gamergate has been complaining about.

[Chance92]

My only thoughts on the matter: hardcore gamers are psychopaths by and large, always have been, and always will be. This whole "debate" has only served to prove it to me.

This is the kind of blatant generalization that gamergate has been complaining about.

And I frankly don't give a good goddamn. If gamers really care so much about being generalized, maybe they ought to change their attitudes.

[BaconBacon96]

My only thoughts on the matter: hardcore gamers are psychopaths by and large, always have been, and always will be. This whole "debate" has only served to prove it to me.

This is the kind of blatant generalization that gamergate has been complaining about.

And I frankly don't give a good goddamn. If gamers really care so much about being generalized, maybe they ought to change their attitudes.

Another generalization. How can you know the attitudes of all gamers?