Catholic church opens up - a little bit - to gay couples
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politicus
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« on: October 14, 2014, 07:54:53 PM »
« edited: October 22, 2014, 01:54:43 PM by politicus »

http://news.yahoo.com/vatican-document-challenges-church-change-attitude-gays-114144311.html

There is already a (predictable) conservative backlash against this, but I would be interested in what forum Catholics think of the Bishops conference report opening the door a little to a more positive evaluation of gay relationships.

"Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a further space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a Church that offers them a welcoming home."

Platitudes or a genuine opening? Possibly both? At least it sets a new tone.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2014, 08:34:08 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/vatican-document-challenges-church-change-attitude-gays-114144311.html

There is already a (predictable) conservative backlash against this, but I would be interested in what forum Catholics think of the Bishop conference report opening the door a little to a more positive evaluation of gay relationships.

"Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a further space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a Church that offers them a welcoming home."

Platitudes or a genuine opening? Possibly both? At least it sets a new tone.

I'm not sure which one it is, but I'm watching with interest.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2014, 09:51:01 PM »

First of all, remember this is a draft of the starting point where the 200 or so bishops are coming from as they head into the Synod. It has no doctrinal weight within the Catholic Church. It is not a finished product and it's kind of surprising both that they released the text and that anyone actually read it.

Overall the "midterm report" from the Synod so far has been a change in style rather than substance with regards to Paragraph 50 on homosexuality, which is the one the media seems to be intrigued by, and that was quoted in the article linked:

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Notice which sentence was left off in the article linked to from here. The meaning is somewhat different with and without it. It is another restatement of the Church's teaching that homosexual acts are sinful but that homosexual tendencies are not and that we need to treat people with them with dignity and respect (though in our culture the latter is often interpreted as meaning supporting their actions). It's again the "hate the sin, love the sinner" paradox though this time focusing on the "loving the sinner" part.

Paragraph 51 goes on to affirm the Church's "hate the sin" part of its teachings on the topic, albeit vaguely not very forcefully for anyone who doesn't already know its teachings:

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If there is a paragraph in this document that might be change with regards to homosexuality in some way, it's Paragraph 52:

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I actually have no idea what that paragraph means. It may be a reference to the Church's stance against same-sex adoption. I'm not sure. I'm not sure the paragraph actually says anything at all. If it does it's extremely unclear.

The things to keep in mind is that this isn't the final version and the current form has no doctrinal weight. If something like Paragraph 50 ends up with the final document (which I'd be surprised if it doesn't) then there is no doctrinal shift. If something like Paragraph 52 ends up in the final form, then we'll have a heck of a time trying to figure out what it means. I can only presume that by the time they get to the final draft they make it clear.
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afleitch
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 03:52:16 AM »

A kinder, gentler homophobia.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 05:08:15 AM »

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No.
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 06:56:01 AM »

I'm cautiously optimistic about this. Not that there will be revolutionary change, because there won't. At least not immediately. But I often think of the Catholic church like a huge ocean liner. To turn the thing, you've got to start hauling the wheel a couple of miles before you actually need to make the turn. This feels like that.

It doesn't change the fact that they're hauling the wheel awfully late, and by the time they get to where society is now, it's likely society will have moved on even further, but I'd like to hope that people who get value out of the church will be able to see it being ultimately compassionate toward people no matter what.
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Maistre
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 09:08:49 AM »

Cardinal Muller, head of the CDF has since labeled this document as (in his own words) "Undignified, Shameful, Completely Wrong!"
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MaxQue
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2014, 11:05:40 PM »

Cardinal Burke, one of the main opponents to the report, which is Chief Justice of Vatican Supreme Court is apparently being moved to the position of patron of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which is a ceremonial and powerless office.
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2014, 11:11:13 PM »

Cardinal Burke, one of the main opponents to the report, which is Chief Justice of Vatican Supreme Court is apparently being moved to the position of patron of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which is a ceremonial and powerless office.

Oh thank goodness.
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afleitch
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 09:33:03 AM »

Well that was fun while it lasted.
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Nathan
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 10:39:02 AM »

Seriously. How tantalizing (for, you know, what it was), and what a disappointment. I mean, at least 'no consensus' (which is how this is being reported) is less bad than an actively reactionary consensus, and at least Cardinal Burke has been demoted, but still.
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afleitch
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2014, 12:13:14 PM »

Seriously. How tantalizing (for, you know, what it was), and what a disappointment. I mean, at least 'no consensus' (which is how this is being reported) is less bad than an actively reactionary consensus, and at least Cardinal Burke has been demoted, but still.

To be fair, it's not as if we have to wait for permission. The major issue for me (because quite frankly I don't really care what they think about gay people; part of me believes there's a deliberate effort to be contrary anyway) was no agreement reached on communion (with the emphasis on the communal part of that) for divorcees.
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King
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 09:22:34 AM »

The far right bishops filibustered it, but it's clear Francis has majority support on this issue.

Once he has a few years to appoint more favorable bishops, this will pass.
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°Leprechaun
tmcusa2
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 09:42:19 AM »

How many Catholic priests are homosexuals? What per cent?
By that I don't mean practicing homosexuals, but anyone with
that orientation whether they act on their feelings or not.
It would make sense for a homosexual Catholic to become a
priest if he thinks it is a sin to be homosexual.
My guess that there are at least as many as the general population.

A while ago there was this movie "Priest" (1994) about a priest
struggling with his homosexual feelings while trying to maintain
a conservative "party" line.
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politicus
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 09:49:01 AM »
« Edited: October 22, 2014, 10:38:24 AM by politicus »

How many Catholic priests are homosexuals? What per cent?
By that I don't mean practicing homosexuals, but anyone with
that orientation whether they act on their feelings or not.
It would make sense for a homosexual Catholic to become a
priest if he thinks it is a sin to be homosexual.
My guess that there are at least as many as the general population.

A while ago there was this movie "Priest" (1994) about a priest
struggling with his homosexual feelings while trying to maintain
a conservative "party" line.


I have recently seen the estimate 1/3 regarding the US. I can't remember the source (except that it was a Jesuit priest with a long experience teaching at a seminar). I think it is obvious that the number would be much higher than in the general population.  

See also this one:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/29/catholic-priests-its-empirical-fact-that-many-clergy-are-gay

In "The Changing Face of the Priesthood" (2000) Rev. Donald B. Cozzens claimed the priesthood was increasingly becoming a gay profession in the US. Cozzens estimated that as much as 58% of priests are gay, and that percentages were higher for younger priests. The article says sociological estimates varies from 10% to 60%. So no consensus.

But as Father Gary Meier, gay Catholic priest from St. Louis, puts it:
"30 percent are gay, 30 percent are straight, and 30 percent are in denial." Wink
(probably leaving 10% asexual, which also sounds about right IMO)

There is a good bibliography of pre-2000 research on the topic here:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/lgbcathbib9.asp

(it's a shame they haven't updated it)
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 11:35:49 AM »

The far right bishops filibustered it, but it's clear Francis has majority support on this issue.

Once he has a few years to appoint more favorable bishops, this will pass.

Yeah, I think so too. Things have been moving so fast in the Church lately that we feel disappointed when they don't move fast enough, but I think that by the end of Francis' pontificate he will have succeeded in bringing the Church where he wants it to be.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 03:40:44 PM »

In "The Changing Face of the Priesthood" (2000) Rev. Donald B. Cozzens claimed the priesthood was increasingly becoming a gay profession in the US. Cozzens estimated that as much as 58% of priests are gay, and that percentages were higher for younger priests. The article says sociological estimates varies from 10% to 60%. So no consensus.

Really? That's a bit surprising. I would've figured that it would be declining as irreligion and open homosexuality became socially acceptable.
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afleitch
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 03:48:27 PM »

In "The Changing Face of the Priesthood" (2000) Rev. Donald B. Cozzens claimed the priesthood was increasingly becoming a gay profession in the US. Cozzens estimated that as much as 58% of priests are gay, and that percentages were higher for younger priests. The article says sociological estimates varies from 10% to 60%. So no consensus.

Really? That's a bit surprising. I would've figured that it would be declining as irreligion and open homosexuality became socially acceptable.


One can easily assume that young priests aren't irreligious.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2014, 04:05:05 PM »

In "The Changing Face of the Priesthood" (2000) Rev. Donald B. Cozzens claimed the priesthood was increasingly becoming a gay profession in the US. Cozzens estimated that as much as 58% of priests are gay, and that percentages were higher for younger priests. The article says sociological estimates varies from 10% to 60%. So no consensus.

Really? That's a bit surprising. I would've figured that it would be declining as irreligion and open homosexuality became socially acceptable.


One can easily assume that young priests aren't irreligious.

Right, but conversion/apostasy isn't a cold, logical process. One would think that given an accepting secular environment, a young homosexual Catholic would be significantly more likely to say "t'hell with it" than in 1950.
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afleitch
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 04:17:14 PM »

In "The Changing Face of the Priesthood" (2000) Rev. Donald B. Cozzens claimed the priesthood was increasingly becoming a gay profession in the US. Cozzens estimated that as much as 58% of priests are gay, and that percentages were higher for younger priests. The article says sociological estimates varies from 10% to 60%. So no consensus.

Really? That's a bit surprising. I would've figured that it would be declining as irreligion and open homosexuality became socially acceptable.


One can easily assume that young priests aren't irreligious.

Right, but conversion/apostasy isn't a cold, logical process. One would think that given an accepting secular environment, a young homosexual Catholic would be significantly more likely to say "t'hell with it" than in 1950.

Yes, they probably would. A significant number of heterosexual young Catholics would also say 'to hell with it'. That's why 60-70 years ago most Catholic extended families had at least one priest, now few do. Given that homosexuality in western Catholic majority/minority nations is not as tolerated as 'carefree' heterosexuality, it makes sense that a more disproportionate number of heterosexual Catholics think 'to f-ck' with the priesthood which, by extension, leaves a core number of homosexuals who aren't able to do the same. It's not that there are 'more' gays in the priesthood, it's that there are less heterosexuals (and less gays too in raw number I would imagine but making up a larger proportion)

Indeed, having a very large number of sexually repressed and self loathing homosexuals in the Church as the numbers taking the vocation fell was probably the catalyst for the Church codifying it's opposition to gays (On Pastoral Care etc) so strongly in the 1980's when before hand, it was generally indifferent.
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