Do you support a travel ban for Western Africa countries...
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  Do you support a travel ban for Western Africa countries...
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Question: for the purpose of protecting Americans from Ebola?
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#3
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#4
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#5
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#6
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Author Topic: Do you support a travel ban for Western Africa countries...  (Read 1201 times)
ElectionsGuy
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« on: October 16, 2014, 10:11:44 PM »

No (I/O). Interesting how Republicans aren't so small government anymore.
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Sol
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2014, 10:16:58 PM »

Which countries? There are no cases in Benin, for example. And Nigeria just eradicated it.
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20RP12
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2014, 10:19:42 PM »

No (sane)
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2014, 10:20:55 PM »

Which countries? There are no cases in Benin, for example. And Nigeria just eradicated it.

Yeah, the generalization is annoying. But for the sake of this question the most critical countries. Liberia, Sierra Leone, Guinea, etc.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2014, 10:34:17 PM »

I oppose all travel bans (R)
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2014, 10:59:05 PM »

No, but I think Obama is a goddamn fool for not putting one in place.
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2014, 11:01:49 PM »

No, because it simply would not work, it's too easy to get around it.
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 11:53:54 PM »

It seems that quite a few African countries are not being run by people who psychopathically prioritize importing a few additional voters over implementing the most basic measure to protect their existing citizens from the most dangerous public health crisis in living memory. It's historically a rare thing, African countries being run less psychopathically than this one. Although, I suspect, a state of affairs which is going to recur with greater and greater frequency.

Given the nature of ebola, if it broke out here, it would almost entirely effect urban areas, which means it would almost exclusively kill Democrats, which I suppose would be a sort of poetic justice as long as we're using psychopath logic.

Continuing to assess the quandary in psychopath terms, it's obviously going to be an incalculable boon to this country when all those X,000 new Liberians all become partners in major hedge funds and contribute millions of dollars to the Treasury each during the period that they overstay their visas, which means we should just about break even on the cost of tracking down everyone that nurse had contact with in the planes and airports to several degrees of separation (and putting all the ones who get sick into $millions quarantine medical care). Such a plus that it's easily worth risking a few million horrible deaths over.

No, because it simply would not work, it's too easy to get around it.

Oh well jeez, might as well not even try in that case!

No (I/O). Interesting how Republicans aren't so small government anymore.

Wow, what a zinger! The hypocrisy of the Republicans: laid bare!

Hey bud, as a recovering ex-libertarian, allow me to inform ya that "small government" or whatever other "moral principle" is not some magical elixir that improves every situation, if only there were more small government. For example, when objective reality dictates that the government needs to protect its citizens by taking basic public health measures, the correct government procedure is to respond to objective reality and take basic public health measures, and not do nothing, confident in the knowledge that the friendly filovirus will leave us be, impressed by our commitment to the Non-Aggression Principle.

For future reference, I, not being nuts, and concerned for the lives of the primarily-Democratic souls in our major cities, support a complete travel ban from the affected countries, including Western aid workers - they gotta stay until the end of the outbreak. And, I would support the same ban whether it were Sierra Leone or Switzerland in which ebola was running rampant. Although I suspect a ban would already be in place if it were Switzerland.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2014, 12:17:58 AM »

A brief travel ban to get a hold on the situation (and actually getting our s**t together on travel restrictions placed on people traveling within the country too, so you don't have nurses with Ebola traveling around the f**king country in commercial airliners) is reasonable, and this case, not all that economically damaging to do so.

The fact that this has turned into a political issue seems stupid. I'm not sitting here freaking out about Ebola, but considering the severity of the disease and the resources we need to get in place still, this does not strike me as something that should be as controversial as it is.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2014, 12:24:29 AM »

Yikes.  

Two big problems with that logic:

Getting aid workers into the Western Africa may be critical in getting the outbreak under control.  Ultimately, the longer we allow this to spread, the greater the total risk is to the whole world.   The best solution is term nip this in the bud and shut down the outbreak.  If it was a mere choice, 1 American for 1000 Africans, at least you would have a type of heartless logic.  But, we're not going to shut off travel into Africa forever, and if we allow Ebola to keep spreading, that might be the bigger risk to American life.  Obviously, that's an empirical question, but certainly dangerous to let this fester in Africa with their ineffectual governments left to deal with ebola alone.  The particulars should be left to the doctors who know what they need to combat this outbreak.

People are suffering and we should help them.  That's what decent human beings do for each other.  We can't stop every disease, but this is a particularly terrible one and it's possible to wipe it out completely, at least for the time being.  You don't treat people like lepers, just because they're sick and different from you.  And, certainly this whole racial angle should make us all sick.  "Importing voters?"  Is that really how you see what the government is doing?  Gross.
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ProgressiveCanadian
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2014, 12:31:46 AM »

Absolutely not, it won’t work and people who get around the ban won't get proper screening so it’s counterproductive.
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2014, 12:55:28 AM »

If there is a public health need for more western aid workers to travel to West Africa, then they can travel to those countries in a NBC-protected military plane. There is zero reason why there should be any travel allowed from those countries at this point in time.

You don't treat people like lepers, just because they're sick and different from you.

If you have HIV, I'm not going to have sex with you, and I'm not some sort of bigot for taking that obvious step to protect my own health.* Likewise, if you are wishing to travel from some country that is overrun by one of the most deadly and contagious diseases in existence, it is very reasonable for me to ask you to temporarily delay your travel plans, which does not imply that I think you're a bad person, merely that I myself have my head screwed on straight. If Missouri were ground zero of an ebola outbreak, I would prefer that my dear Grammy and Grandpa choose a different time of year to visit, as genetically similar to myself as they might be.

*To some, this is not as obvious as it sounds, as a gay guy one frequently finds "poz" guys who will claim you're a bigot for not having sex with them.

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That's the most charitable interpretation of the government's inaction that one could take. (The other is that they want an ebola outbreak in this country, which seems a bit too far out there in the realm of motiveless malignity). It is the only conceivable reason why the "reality-based community" is hysterically opposed to obvious public health measures (again, unless they want mass deaths from ebola because it would be new and interesting). Bedford-Stuyvesant, I note, is not only a bastion of said reality-based community, but also one of the first places where one would get acquainted with the reality of ebola in the event of a national pandemic.

Absolutely not, it won’t work and people who get around the ban won't get proper screening so it’s counterproductive.

Someone from the affected countries who 1. obtains a fake passport from an unaffected country, 2. flies to an unaffected country other than the US, 3. flies to the US, is going to die of ebola if they have it somewhere between steps 1 and 2.
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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2014, 01:23:32 AM »

No (I/O). Interesting how Republicans aren't so small government anymore.

Well, you look dumb...  Check out your results.
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20RP12
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2014, 05:18:53 AM »

No (I/O). Interesting how Republicans aren't so small government anymore.

Well, you look dumb...  Check out your results.

I'm assuming he's talking about Republican politicians. We only have one Republican politician on this forum.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2014, 06:13:47 AM »

No (I/O). Interesting how Republicans aren't so small government anymore.

Well, you look dumb...  Check out your results.

I'm assuming he's talking about Republican politicians. We only have one Republican politician on this forum.

Yeah, I didn't mean it to extend to people that happen to affiliate with Republicans. Whenever I talk about "Republicans" in a negative sense I'm probably talking about Washington politicians. In this case, I'm just saying the rhetoric doesn't match the policy. This is a non-political issue that (all the sudden) got politicized by the media and pols on both sides.
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Cory
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2014, 06:29:37 AM »

Of course we should, and I haven't heard any serious arguments against it.

"They can just go through Europe."

That's not even true. They still have this thing called a "Passport". I really wish people would stop being dense and saying that.

"It will stop aid workers from going there."

No it won't. It would be a commercial ban, they can be flown on charter planes.

"There will be social/political panic in affected nations."

You mean there isn't already? A travel ban with America isn't going to adjust their situation in this regard.

"It will marginalize the sick."

By that standard we shouldn't have any protections against any kind of illness ever. I'm sorry but the public good trumps some people's "feels".

We keep hearing people say they are against the ban but you don't hear any real reason as to why.

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bedstuy
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2014, 07:50:54 AM »

If there is a public health need for more western aid workers to travel to West Africa, then they can travel to those countries in a NBC-protected military plane. There is zero reason why there should be any travel allowed from those countries at this point in time.

So, that wouldn't be a travel ban, would it?  That would be an exception and it would be a restrictive in its own right, for the US military to establish commercial service between various cities in West Africa and the United States.  And, how would that lessen the possibility that people in the US could catch ebola?  The medical workers are some of the most likely people to catch ebola in these countries. 

There are other concerns too.  These countries are teetering on the brink of chaos.  If the can't truly engage in international trade and their economies collapse, how are they going to even try to handle the Ebola crisis in their country?

And, I'm not saying you should never have a travel ban ever.  It just doesn't seem efficacious at this point.

You don't treat people like lepers, just because they're sick and different from you.

If you have HIV, I'm not going to have sex with you, and I'm not some sort of bigot for taking that obvious step to protect my own health.* Likewise, if you are wishing to travel from some country that is overrun by one of the most deadly and contagious diseases in existence, it is very reasonable for me to ask you to temporarily delay your travel plans, which does not imply that I think you're a bad person, merely that I myself have my head screwed on straight. If Missouri were ground zero of an ebola outbreak, I would prefer that my dear Grammy and Grandpa choose a different time of year to visit, as genetically similar to myself as they might be.

*To some, this is not as obvious as it sounds, as a gay guy one frequently finds "poz" guys who will claim you're a bigot for not having sex with them.

Ebola is not one of the most contagious diseases.  That's blatantly false and it goes to show how the fear component can work here.  People often create irrational fears about sick people.  People will refuse to shake hands with an HIV positive person, they'll refuse to visit someone who has cancer, that's gut instinct of treating people like a leper.  Ebola isn't something you want to play around with, but you're putting fear above the evidence-based advice of doctors. 

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That's the most charitable interpretation of the government's inaction that one could take. (The other is that they want an ebola outbreak in this country, which seems a bit too far out there in the realm of motiveless malignity). It is the only conceivable reason why the "reality-based community" is hysterically opposed to obvious public health measures (again, unless they want mass deaths from ebola because it would be new and interesting). Bedford-Stuyvesant, I note, is not only a bastion of said reality-based community, but also one of the first places where one would get acquainted with the reality of ebola in the event of a national pandemic.


So, black people will all magically get Ebola?  You're sounding pretty darn racist and ignorant.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2014, 08:22:00 AM »

No, but I think Obama is a goddamn fool for not putting one in place.

For the sake of optics?  Yep.  (Naso normal)
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tpfkaw
wormyguy
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2014, 08:44:16 AM »

So, that wouldn't be a travel ban, would it?  That would be an exception

And? I'm not giving an encomium to the immortal principle of travel banning, I'm suggesting that our government apply the same basic public health principles as currently being practiced by dozens of African countries.

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Those people are accepting that risk by traveling to those countries and working with people with ebola. Since they have accepted that risk, it is fair for them to bear it. It is not fair (and also, completely f[inks]ing psychotic) to demand that everyone in our country be exposed to that risk. And like I said, I don't support them coming back either; one-way tickets until the outbreak is over.

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Oh, well heaven forbid the large and diversified economies of Liberia, Guinea, and Sierra Leone should collapse; I'm sure they're buying hedges all over Wall Street against the loss of all that international trade. Unfortunately it does seem as though their entire economies, under a principle similar to the underpants gnomes, depend on infecting Americans with ebola. Guess I was a little quick on the draw in saying "diversified."

To the extent that these countries even have governments, they are entirely funded by Western aid. There are no economies to collapse, these are places where people quite literally live atop their own sh[inks]. If there can be any economic trajectory downwards from living atop one's own sh[inks], I've yet to hear of it. (Perhaps living atop one's own sh[inks], but without heroin).

I mean, seriously, give me a break.

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Ebola can be spread by minuscule quantities of bodily fluids, including sweat or airborne saliva. You might note that anyone who is anywhere near a person with or suspected of having ebola is to wear full HAZMAT gear, as is the evidence-based advice of doctors. The Liberian gentleman in Dallas got it from helping a woman cross the street, while the nurses got it from visiting his room without HAZMAT suits during the very brief period when he was admitted to the hospital but had yet to be tested for ebola. I said that it is "one of the most deadly and contagious diseases in existence," in the sense that there are few if any diseases that are both as deadly and as contagious.

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No bud, I'm referring to your location in a densely-populated urban area, roughly in the center of the triangle formed by three major international airports. Nevertheless, I would rather be "racist" than dead. I would even rather be "racist" than see you dead.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2014, 09:20:00 AM »
« Edited: October 17, 2014, 09:21:51 AM by bedstuy »

In one breath you're saying African countries are incompetent and we should adopt the exact same measures as they do.  Which is it? 

To me, this is mostly an empirical medical question.  Every medical and public health expert that I've heard has said a travel ban is not a good idea.  I'll try the experts over breathless hypochondriacs and people who are worried about Obama importing Liberian voters to kill all of us white people.
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tpfkaw
wormyguy
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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2014, 10:02:07 AM »

In one breath you're saying African countries are incompetent and we should adopt the exact same measures as they do.  Which is it?

Today we learn: All Africans are the same!

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Obama administration appointees, obviously, simply repeat whatever they are told to say by the White House, and come up with whatever BS explanation they can come up with to justify it (in this case a completely nonsensical one). We may note that the job performance of said "experts" at protecting Americans from ebola has been godawful. We may also note that those African countries which have instituted travel bans have done a thus-far excellent job at protecting their citizens from ebola, despite actually, you know, being on the same continent as the outbreak. We can either believe the black African public health experts who have done a far better job in a far more dangerous situation with far fewer resources available to them, or we can believe objectively incompetent whitey. You choose to believe whitey. Seems pretty racist to me!

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I'm actually pretty agnostic on the whole voter-importation thing. I myself come from a line of imported Democrats! I do not, however, feel that the obvious underlying motivations here don't deserve to be called out, when they are applied psychopathically. As we can see I've struck a nerve, which generally indicates that I've hit the nail pretty squarely on the head.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2014, 10:30:01 AM »

No (I/O). Interesting how Republicans aren't so small government anymore.

Apparently, you think the US Constitution provides for the right to spread infectious disease around the country.

If we start allowing infected individuals to sue the careless traveling hosts of the disease, like the nurse from DFW who traveled to Cleveland, then maybe we can live in a world without travel bans.

Until then, get real.
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Franzl
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2014, 10:34:16 AM »

If we start allowing infected individuals to sue the careless traveling hosts of the disease, like the nurse from DFW who traveled to Cleveland, then maybe we can live in a world without travel bans.

Yeah that's a brilliant idea. Just hope the infected individual gets his money within 2 working days so he can spend it before his probable death.
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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2014, 11:01:40 AM »

No (I/O). Interesting how Republicans aren't so small government anymore.

Well, you look dumb...  Check out your results.

I'm assuming he's talking about Republican politicians. We only have one Republican politician on this forum.

Yeah, I didn't mean it to extend to people that happen to affiliate with Republicans. Whenever I talk about "Republicans" in a negative sense I'm probably talking about Washington politicians. In this case, I'm just saying the rhetoric doesn't match the policy. This is a non-political issue that (all the sudden) got politicized by the media and pols on both sides.

Okay, fair enough.  Sorry for the unkind words.  But it is very true and important to remember that small government is not necessarily conservative and big government is not necessarily liberal.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2014, 02:42:07 PM »

In one breath you're saying African countries are incompetent and we should adopt the exact same measures as they do.  Which is it?

Today we learn: All Africans are the same!

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Obama administration appointees, obviously, simply repeat whatever they are told to say by the White House, and come up with whatever BS explanation they can come up with to justify it (in this case a completely nonsensical one). We may note that the job performance of said "experts" at protecting Americans from ebola has been godawful. We may also note that those African countries which have instituted travel bans have done a thus-far excellent job at protecting their citizens from ebola, despite actually, you know, being on the same continent as the outbreak. We can either believe the black African public health experts who have done a far better job in a far more dangerous situation with far fewer resources available to them, or we can believe objectively incompetent whitey. You choose to believe whitey. Seems pretty racist to me!

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I'm actually pretty agnostic on the whole voter-importation thing. I myself come from a line of imported Democrats! I do not, however, feel that the obvious underlying motivations here don't deserve to be called out, when they are applied psychopathically. As we can see I've struck a nerve, which generally indicates that I've hit the nail pretty squarely on the head.

So, everyone who opposes a travel ban is a government stooge?  The CDC is making decisions because they want Liberians to immigrate to America and vote for Democrats?  You're not making much sense and again, turning this into a racial thing is gross.
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