The Atlasian Universal Education Bill (Debating)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 03:25:42 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Government (Moderators: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee, Lumine)
  The Atlasian Universal Education Bill (Debating)
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6
Author Topic: The Atlasian Universal Education Bill (Debating)  (Read 5533 times)
Lumine
LumineVonReuental
Moderator
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,610
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: October 16, 2014, 11:01:34 PM »

Slot: 3 (General, PPT Administered)

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Senator Cynic, as sponsor you have 24 hours to make your case for this bill.
Logged
TNF
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,440


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2014, 11:52:11 AM »

Why should this only apply to fees? We need to do something about the insane cost of textbooks and room and board too.
Logged
Dr. Cynic
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,417
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.11, S: -6.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2014, 01:34:19 PM »

Why should this only apply to fees? We need to do something about the insane cost of textbooks and room and board too.

This bill only applies to tuition because I simply feel it would be more likely to pass than eliminating costs of textbooks and room and board will. As far as living on campus, that's a student choice. I didn't live on campus when I went to college and as far as I know, most universities don't require them to do so. My interest is presenting a passable bill and I didn't believe I could get one by adding additional costs to an already, admittedly, expensive bill.

I wrote a similar bill when I was a member of the NE Assembly. I promised during the campaign that I would introduce a bill that would abolish tuition fees nationally.
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2014, 01:35:20 AM »

I think we've got some problems. We have a mix of public and private institutions, so what powers do we have to abolish tuition fees?

Also textbooks, and room and board aren't necessarily set by anything that we can control.
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Moderator
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 54,123
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2014, 08:28:26 AM »

What in this bill would compensate for the loss of revenue to the institutions? That could impact quality significantly and decrease the percentage of accepted (into the institution) students.
Logged
Dr. Cynic
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,417
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.11, S: -6.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2014, 05:00:28 PM »

I think we've got some problems. We have a mix of public and private institutions, so what powers do we have to abolish tuition fees?

The bill specifies that it applies to public institutions, but that's still a problem. The Senate only has power over the National University System, which was only established two years ago and probably accounts for a negligible share of college students in Atlasia.

We obviously cannot tell the regions that they must abolish tuition at every institution of higher education that they run. In at least a couple of cases, there isn't even much need to for us to do more than the regions are already doing. The Pacific and the Northeast have passed generous tuition assistance policies over the past several years, IIRC.

That doesn't mean that we can't do anything, of course. (See this and this for past examples.)

As in the NE, I wrote the bill that abolished tuition fees as I said. I'd like to see such a policy applied nationally.

I think we've got some problems. We have a mix of public and private institutions, so what powers do we have to abolish tuition fees?

Also textbooks, and room and board aren't necessarily set by anything that we can control.

The bill applies only to publicly funded and owned schools. My real desire would be simply universal access to college, but I know that would never pass. It doesn't apply to textbooks, room and board, etc.

What in this bill would compensate for the loss of revenue to the institutions? That could impact quality significantly and decrease the percentage of accepted (into the institution) students.

The institutions this bill is applied for are already public, so profit is not the primary concern. Private schools are not covered in this bill (as much as I would like it).
Logged
bore
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,274
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2014, 06:11:32 PM »

I think we've got some problems. We have a mix of public and private institutions, so what powers do we have to abolish tuition fees?

The bill specifies that it applies to public institutions, but that's still a problem. The Senate only has power over the National University System, which was only established two years ago and probably accounts for a negligible share of college students in Atlasia.

We obviously cannot tell the regions that they must abolish tuition at every institution of higher education that they run. In at least a couple of cases, there isn't even much need to for us to do more than the regions are already doing. The Pacific and the Northeast have passed generous tuition assistance policies over the past several years, IIRC.

That doesn't mean that we can't do anything, of course. (See this and this for past examples.)

As in the NE, I wrote the bill that abolished tuition fees as I said. I'd like to see such a policy applied nationally.

We simply do not have the authority to do that.

I'm not entirely sure that we should, but I'm fairly certain that, again due to the way the constitution is written, we do have that authority.
Logged
Dr. Cynic
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,417
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.11, S: -6.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2014, 07:51:16 PM »

I think we've got some problems. We have a mix of public and private institutions, so what powers do we have to abolish tuition fees?

The bill specifies that it applies to public institutions, but that's still a problem. The Senate only has power over the National University System, which was only established two years ago and probably accounts for a negligible share of college students in Atlasia.

We obviously cannot tell the regions that they must abolish tuition at every institution of higher education that they run. In at least a couple of cases, there isn't even much need to for us to do more than the regions are already doing. The Pacific and the Northeast have passed generous tuition assistance policies over the past several years, IIRC.

That doesn't mean that we can't do anything, of course. (See this and this for past examples.)

As in the NE, I wrote the bill that abolished tuition fees as I said. I'd like to see such a policy applied nationally.

We simply do not have the authority to do that.

I'm not entirely sure that we should, but I'm fairly certain that, again due to the way the constitution is written, we do have that authority.

In what way do we not have the authority to abolish tuition fees to publicly funded universities?
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2014, 08:41:52 PM »

I worry that the consequences of this could be to further stratify the education system.
Logged
bore
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,274
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 06:31:16 AM »

I assume nix thinks this would be unconstitutional based on this:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

But that specifically says that the rights of the senate overrule this, and one of those rights is:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Which I think clearly encompasses abolishing tuition fees.
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 06:46:08 AM »

What are the economic impacts on public universities by this measures, especially against private institutions?
Logged
Maxwell
mah519
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,459
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2014, 09:57:46 AM »

I believe this is not only unconstitutional, but it's a bad idea. I encourage the Senate to reject this right away.
Logged
Talleyrand
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,517


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2014, 10:38:19 AM »

I believe this is not only unconstitutional, but it's a bad idea. I encourage the Senate to reject this right away.

I am not a fan of this, although I won't venture into speculating on its constitutionality. Although by no means am I big on "regional rights", I do think something like this is best left to the regions...
Logged
bore
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,274
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2014, 11:22:43 AM »

I assume nix thinks this would be unconstitutional based on this:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

But that specifically says that the rights of the senate overrule this, and one of those rights is:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Which I think clearly encompasses abolishing tuition fees.

That's a tendentious interpretation of the Science and Useful Arts Clause, but fair enough. I'm less worried about passing an unconstitutional bill than I am about passing one that would have devastating effects on Atlasian public education.



Well, yeah. The point I'm making, and the same point I make every time one of these borderline bills comes up is both constitutional and unconstitutional sides have logically waterproof arguments, which is a sure sign there is a problem with the constitution.
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2014, 03:31:38 PM »

Putting the question if constitutionality to one side, I agree with Senator Nix.

Guaranteeing access is not the same as guaranteeing attendance. I worry about smaller public universities and the impacts on their bottom lines, which does have an impact on their ability to recruit faculty and support academic, cultural and athletic infrastructure.

Logged
Dr. Cynic
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,417
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.11, S: -6.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2014, 05:51:41 PM »

The hell with it.

Table the bill.
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2014, 05:56:05 PM »

The thing is Senator, I fully support the intent of the Bill.

We need to make sure that every student should have access to University/or equivalent based on academic merit alone.

I'd like to work with you to determine a workable path.
Logged
Dr. Cynic
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,417
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.11, S: -6.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2014, 05:59:08 PM »

The thing is Senator, I fully support the intent of the Bill.

We need to make sure that every student should have access to University/or equivalent based on academic merit alone.

I'd like to work with you to determine a workable path.

PM me, we can work on a bill together. I'll table this one and work on something that'll pass. If this isn't going to pass, and it isn't, I'm not wasting anymore time.
Logged
Lumine
LumineVonReuental
Moderator
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,610
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2014, 08:52:23 PM »

Should we continue here or does someone else support the motion to table?
Logged
Lumine
LumineVonReuental
Moderator
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,610
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2014, 09:40:10 PM »

I'm being a bit obsessive with the rules here, but would you mind motioning to withdraw, Cynic?
Logged
Dr. Cynic
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,417
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.11, S: -6.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2014, 01:58:47 AM »

Fine. Motion to withdraw.
Logged
TNF
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,440


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2014, 09:49:10 PM »

I would like to assume sponsorship if it's not too late to do so.
Logged
Lumine
LumineVonReuental
Moderator
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,610
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2014, 10:31:16 PM »

Well, the rules do seem to favor Senators assuming sponsorships rather than just going to the vote, so Senators have 48 hours to object on Senator TNF assuming sponsorship. I'll remind the Senate that if we have an objection we will vote, and if the motion fails this shall be withdrawn from the floor.
Logged
Dr. Cynic
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,417
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.11, S: -6.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2014, 03:32:09 PM »

I don't have any objection if Senator TNF would like to assume sponsorship, that's ok with me. I'll still vote for the bill even if I don't feel it has a hope of passing because I still believe in universal education for Atlasian students.
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Moderator
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 54,123
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2014, 01:32:43 AM »

Lumine?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.049 seconds with 12 queries.