The Atlasian Universal Education Bill (Debating)

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay

[Dr. Cynic]

Aye

[bore]

The amendment has enough votes to pass, senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

[bore]

The amendment has passed:

Aye: Cynic, Polnut, TNF, windjammer, Bore, Cranberry

Nay: JCL

Not voting: Yankee, Bacon King, Deus

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Aye

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

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Sorry this has taken so long...

I know it doesn't make anything "free" but I've tried to bring together as many concerns together as possible.

I'll wait to hear from others before offering as formal amendment.

[TNF]

I'm going to declare this friendly as soon as Polnut formally offers it.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I propose this as an amendment.

[bore]

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Proposed by: Polnut

Status: Friendly

Senators have 36 hours to object to this amendment

[Cranberry]

I guess I will support this.
We are not going to get full free education, that much was sure, so I'd just say we take this. It's well written, sensible, I can fully support it.

It will probably take some time, but I would start to calculate some numbers to see what much is now covered and what much we still need. As I said, that will probably take some time.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Where are we on the numbers on this with the amendment's schedule? Are the costs fully covered?

[Cranberry]

Where are we on the numbers on this with the amendment's schedule? Are the costs fully covered?

We need to start calculate all over again, since there are now completely different numbers to work with.

[bore]

Polnut's amendment has been adopted

[windjammer]

Polnut has done a wonderful job.
So, I motion for a final job!

[Lumine]

I share the question posed by Yankee regarding the costs here, I think that should be addressed before a final vote. Creating the budget will still take a few days since I've been busy with exams and I'm not really good with that type of task, but my research shows that we have been on quite the spending spree (and I say we because I am also guilty of this as a former Senator) for the past year. Cuts will have to be made, which is why I would prefer if this didn't add to the deficit.

That said, it is a truly interesting effort!

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I'd be content to wait to see the Budget impacts and needs.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I object to Polnut's Amendment. The fees should be determined by the market and not by the government.

[Cranberry]

If there is still room and place for a few quick calucations, here we go:

It was already postulated that we would need $62,2 billions to abolish current tuition fees and replace it with whatever system there might be. The amendment does away with the safe of approx. $20 billions we saved if we did away with student loans, so $62,2 is the number to work with.

The best data I could come up with (Census, Table 5) gives sadly no numbers on the types of courses the 15 million students currently enrolled in Atlasia's public colleges and universities. As such, best I could do is to assume that in average every one of these students would have to pay the median maximum enrollment fee of $475 per course (here not taking into account out-of-state students). According to the Columbia University (FAQ 5) students take on average five courses per semester, accounting for ten a year; in our model calculation, so ten courses a là $475 per year for the average student - $4750 dollars a year. (This is about 1000 dollars less than the average student pays currently - source)

Multiplying this now to the number of 15 million students at public institutions, this sum of revenues now adds up to $73'691'500'000, or 73,7 billions - 11,5 billions more than would be needed (so we practically get without any state fundings even more than universities would need, while students have to pay a whole thousand dollars a year less)

To conclude, if you want to believe my calculations, we would need no extra-funding for our budget for Senator Polnut's model.

[bore]

I object to Polnut's Amendment. The fees should be determined by the market and not by the government.

Sorry, but you objected after the 36 hours were up, so the amendment has already been adopted.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I object to Polnut's Amendment. The fees should be determined by the market and not by the government.

Sorry, but you objected after the 36 hours were up, so the amendment has already been adopted.

I was on leave and thus my objection should be considered.

[Deus Naturae]

I oppose this bill since I don't think everyone should pursue post-secondary education. If higher education is universalized, a college diploma will likely take on the status of a high school diploma and become something nearly everyone is expected to have, which will mean that everyone will have to go to college, even if their could be better spent elsewhere.

[bore]

I object to Polnut's Amendment. The fees should be determined by the market and not by the government.

Sorry, but you objected after the 36 hours were up, so the amendment has already been adopted.

I was on leave and thus my objection should be considered.

Again, I'm sorry, but that's not how the senate rules work.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I oppose this bill since I don't think everyone should pursue post-secondary education. If higher education is universalized, a college diploma will likely take on the status of a high school diploma and become something nearly everyone is expected to have, which will mean that everyone will have to go to college, even if their could be better spent elsewhere.

I think everyone who wants to go should be able to afford to go, but yes, not everyone is suited or wants to go to college and can better apply their talents in a trade school or some other avenue.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I oppose this bill since I don't think everyone should pursue post-secondary education. If higher education is universalized, a college diploma will likely take on the status of a high school diploma and become something nearly everyone is expected to have, which will mean that everyone will have to go to college, even if their could be better spent elsewhere.

I think everyone who wants to go should be able to afford to go, but yes, not everyone is suited or wants to go to college and can better apply their talents in a trade school or some other avenue.

I'm not sure what point is being made here. This Bill does nothing but ensure people who wish to attend tertiary education to be able to do so, regardless of financial situation. This is not universalising college education, it's opening up access for those who qualify academically and wish to go.

We should be doing more, and I will be proposing a Bill shortly, to encourage and support those people interested in undertaking a trade.

I object to Polnut's Amendment. The fees should be determined by the market and not by the government.

Sorry, but you objected after the 36 hours were up, so the amendment has already been adopted.

I was on leave and thus my objection should be considered.

Again, I'm sorry, but that's not how the senate rules work.

How can you have been in the Senate for 3 months and not know the rules by now?

[Cranberry]

I oppose this bill since I don't think everyone should pursue post-secondary education. If higher education is universalized, a college diploma will likely take on the status of a high school diploma and become something nearly everyone is expected to have, which will mean that everyone will have to go to college, even if their could be better spent elsewhere.

I can understand your position, but the current system does not divide because of one's "intelligence", I'm sorry for not finding a better word, but because of one's parents income. A better way to combat universalisation of post-secondary education, if such is your wish, would be to completely cancel all expenses for students and launch stricter tests or a Numerus Clausus of some sort...