de Blasio continues to run Bloomberg's racist, drug warrior police department

[bedstuy]

Slow your roll, guy. Nobody's demanding anybody ignore facts. But it hadn't been at all clear from what you'd said before, until the tail end of that last post, that you weren't saying there was something intrinsic to black people that made them commit more crimes.

You said black people are poorer in America and you didn't say that it wasn't because black people are intrinsically poor.  Racist much?

How do you like that dumb logic applied to you?

[Slander and/or Libel]

Oh good Lord. Enough.

EDIT: Let me try again. If there is not something intrinsic about black and Hispanic people that make them commit more crimes, then they must commit more crimes for other reasons than their race, which makes racial profiling and systems that bias their results in racist ways problematic, correct?

You seemed to pooh-pooh that the cause of that disparity was racism. Which implied, to me, that you weren't interested in digging deeper. But your last post says (but doesn't explain) that you don't think there exists such an intrinsic disparity. So what is to be done? What's your point in all this, if you don't think blacks and Hispanics are intrinsically predisposed to crime?

[bedstuy]

Oh good Lord. Enough.

EDIT: Let me try again. If there is not something intrinsic about black and Hispanic people that make them commit more crimes, then they must commit more crimes for other reasons than their race, which makes racial profiling and systems that bias their results in racist ways problematic, correct?

You seemed to pooh-pooh that the cause of that disparity was racism. Which implied, to me, that you weren't interested in digging deeper. But your last post says (but doesn't explain) that you don't think there exists such an intrinsic disparity. So what is to be done? What's your point in all this, if you don't think blacks and Hispanics are intrinsically predisposed to crime?

The police should be color-blind.  They should just work on reducing crime, whether there's a white victim, a black victim, a black suspect, a white suspect, etc.  Race shouldn't matter. 

I don't think the NYPD lives up to that, largely because some of their officers are racist.  But, my point was disagreeing with the thesis that the only reason there's a disparity between whites and blacks in terms of drug arrests in NYC is the racism of law enforcement. 

[Rockefeller GOP]

Shocker. Fredo de Blasio continues to betray the progressives that elected him.

He's clearly climbing up my "people I wish would lose" list.

He's been quite liberal on all of his policies, and he has one racist one.  You can be a liberal who's racist (though this guy clearly isn't).

[Sbane]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

[© tweed]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

yes, and they quite consiously choose not to.  New York state is the marijuana arrest capital of the USA (second actually to Illinois per capita).

[patrick1]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Murdered people for one.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

Mj possession in small amounts is already officially decriminalized, but they manage to get around that. 

[© tweed]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

Mj possession in small amounts is already officially decriminalized, but they manage to get around that.  

right, as I said:

New York seriously has to reform their marijuana laws. Even if they are not at the point where the people will support legalization, at least they can decriminalize it. I am sure that has majority support in the state.

it is decriminalized.  the cops have a trick card though.  they tell the suspect to "empty your pockets", and when he does, he gets charged with marijuana in public view, which is a criminal offense.

"getting around it" seems an almost euphemistic way to describe this.

[Sbane]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

Mj possession in small amounts is already officially decriminalized, but they manage to get around that. 

Right, but NYC could go further and basically stop the police from dealing with marijuana offenses by making it the lowest priority. I suppose they would be able to get around that as well but it's worth a shot.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

In a place where they limit the size of sodas why does it surprise anyone that they continue the war on drugs?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

Mj possession in small amounts is already officially decriminalized, but they manage to get around that. 

Right, but NYC could go further and basically stop the police from dealing with marijuana offenses by making it the lowest priority. I suppose they would be able to get around that as well but it's worth a shot.

What would lowest priority mean?  If someone is getting stopped (ostensibly) for something else, wouldn't the police still have a look-see what else they can find?

[© tweed]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

Mj possession in small amounts is already officially decriminalized, but they manage to get around that.  

Right, but NYC could go further and basically stop the police from dealing with marijuana offenses by making it the lowest priority. I suppose they would be able to get around that as well but it's worth a shot.

What would lowest priority mean?  If someone is getting stopped (ostensibly) for something else, wouldn't the police still have a look-see what else they can find?

some PDs either ignore small quantities of weed and/or confiscate/destroy it.  this probably isn't "legal" but there are plenty of anecdotes out there.  the most obvious path would be for the NYPD to stop the arrests and misdemeanor charges associated with "open display", confiscate the weed as evidence and write civil citations for possession of marijuana, as NY law provides.

there are a lot of other issues that go into this.  after a Terry stop weapons pat-down yields nothing just let the suspect go instead of trying to coax weed out of him or his car, etc.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Murdered people for one.

Crime =/= Murder.

[bedstuy]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Murdered people for one.

Crime =/= Murder.

Murder is a crime though and it's certainly indicative of the trends in violent crime in general.

Think about who commits crime. Generally poor young men. How many poor white people are there in New York City?  Not many.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Murdered people for one.

Crime =/= Murder.

Murder is a crime though and it's certainly indicative of the trends in violent crime in general.

Think about who commits crime. Generally poor young men. How many poor white people are there in New York City?  Not many.

Now we're getting somewhere! Are you saying poor people commit more crimes, and that you think "black and Hispanic" is a completely reasonable shorthand for "poor" in NYC?

[bedstuy]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Murdered people for one.

Crime =/= Murder.

Murder is a crime though and it's certainly indicative of the trends in violent crime in general.

Think about who commits crime. Generally poor young men. How many poor white people are there in New York City?  Not many.

Now we're getting somewhere! Are you saying poor people commit more crimes, and that you think "black and Hispanic" is a completely reasonable shorthand for "poor" in NYC?

What's your point? 

[Sbane]

Also, regardless of action at the state level, couldn't NYC just make violations of Marijuana possession the lowest priority for the police? Many liberal cities out west do that to change policing without having to change state laws.

Mj possession in small amounts is already officially decriminalized, but they manage to get around that. 

Right, but NYC could go further and basically stop the police from dealing with marijuana offenses by making it the lowest priority. I suppose they would be able to get around that as well but it's worth a shot.

What would lowest priority mean?  If someone is getting stopped (ostensibly) for something else, wouldn't the police still have a look-see what else they can find?

Basically no paperwork meaning no arrests/citations. They might confiscate/destroy it. Probably would depend on the individual officer.

[Slander and/or Libel]

From your first post in the thread:

White people in NYC don't tend to commit crimes in general so they're just less likely to interact with police.

From your third post in the thread:

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

From your fourth post in the thread:

So, do you think that whites and blacks commit the same number of crimes, or not?  Should they police black neighborhoods less?  White neighborhoods more? 

From your fifth post in the thread:

White people in NYC have fewer interactions with cops.  Their neighborhoods aren't heavily policed, they commit fewer crimes, they don't belong to gangs, they don't live in housing projects, etc.

From your sixth post in the thread:

The neighborhoods with no white or Asian residents have the highest murder rates.  In the 80% white areas of Manhattan, murders are extremely rare.  Are people pretending to get murdered by black people?  Is the NYPD framing people for murder?

From the beginning, you were talking about this in terms of black and white, in such a way that reading you as saying black people are just intrinsically more likely to commit crimes was not at all unreasonable. And you've consistently equated crime and murder, which aren't really the same thing.

There are a lot of crimes which happen but nobody knows about, or nobody gets caught for. Marijuana possession is one. Jaywalking is another. But if you live in an area with a high police presence, you're much more likely to get caught (and punished) for those crimes, which are happening roughly everywhere, but only being strictly enforced in selected areas. Once people in those  heavily policed neighborhoods start to accrue arrest records, sometimes for doing the very same stuff people in other neighborhoods are doing, just outside of the near-constant scrutiny of the police, their economic prospects, and those of the neighborhood at large, get gloomier, and it creates a negative feedback loop.

I suppose what I'm saying is this: if you want to point to some numbers and say black people are more often arrested than white people, proportionately with their share of the population, it's likely true, but incredibly misleading until you've controlled for a number of factors, some of which are very confounding. But to pretend that crimes just aren't happening in "white neighborhoods" (your words) misses the point.

[bedstuy]

Yeah, how dare I inject race into a discussion of racism...

And, if you're discussing race, you look at race.  My whole point is responding to the overboard criticism of the NYPD. People act like police are a negative in poor neighborhoods.  Police save people's lives. They get dangerous people off the street. Want to see the real racism of the NYPD, go back to the 80s and early 90s, police just never went to Bed-Stuy or Brownsville and the residents were prisoners to out of control violence and crime.  The vast majority of black people are the victims here, and you shouldn't exclusively care when a police officer is the victimizer.  That's the kind of racism we're blind to, how we only care about black people when their plight gives self-righteous liberals a chance to decry racism. Racism is bad, so is getting shot.