Turkey being dicks near Cyprus

[dead0man]

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[Velasco]

Meanwhile, Bibi is planning another 1060 houses in East Jerusalem, in order to appease his Jewish Home partners. There is another plan in the queue with 1531 additional houses. Earlier this month, 2500 houses were approved in the Givat Hamatos colony, south of "the indivisible capital of the Jewish state". Just speaking of dickishness.

[ingemann]

Meanwhile, Bibi is planning another 1060 houses in East Jerusalem, in order to appease his Jewish Home partners. There is another plan in the queue with 1531 additional houses. Earlier this month, 2500 houses were approved in the Givat Hamatos colony, south of "the indivisible capital of the Jewish state". Just speaking of dickishness.

How is that even relevant, yes dead0man support Israel, but that doesn't make the Turkish behaviour on Cyprus more accetable in any way or scale, in fact bringing it up only make pro-Palestinians seem hypocritical.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Apparently dickish behavior is more or less universal to humans, particularly those involved in political life. Shocking. I shall write an outraged letter to my Member of Parliament at once.

[Velasco]

How is that even relevant, yes dead0man support Israel, but that doesn't make the Turkish behaviour on Cyprus more acceptable in any way or scale, in fact bringing it up only make pro-Palestinians seem hypocritical.

It's relevant to dickishness. As of late, our dear poster has a strange fixation with Turkey (even weirder than his support of Bibi, Ecce Homo). The guy has been reaching some remarkable absurdity heights in misreading articles in order to claim that "Turkey sucks". Maybe the Turkish behaviour with regard to this incident is a sample of dickishness. Is it relevant?. As said before, dickish behaviour is quite common. I'd only pay attention if dickishness is accompanied by criminal actions. Do you need examples of criminal behaviour in the Middle East?

Focusing on the incident between Turkey and Cyprus, you should remember that there is an ongoing conflict since 1974:

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Regardless what you think of which side has the reason (in my opinion, none), the fact is that Turkey doesn't recognise the Cyprus jurisdiction on those waters. The Greek sector of Cyprus is internationally recognised, whereas the Turkish puppet in the north of the island is not. However, negotiations for Cyprus reunification collapsed by the end of 2012 and were suspended in the beginning of 2013 because of a change of government on the Greek side. In February 2014 both sides renewed negotiations, but one of the main obstacles is the conflict on the exploitation of the reservoir placed to the south of the island. The company which discovered the reservoir is Noble Energy, with headquarters in Texas and with a 30% share of Israeli capital (according to the article, there are also French and Italian companies operating in the area). Turkey-Israel  relations were friendly in the past, but worsened since the Israeli attack on a relief fleet to Gaza in May 2010 (9 Turkish casualties). Simultaneously, relations between (Greek) Cyprus and Israel improved remarkably by that time. Also, the Cyprus entry in the EU was seen in Turkey as an obstacle placed intentionally by those countries reluctant to admit Turkey. As long as both sectors in Cyprus don't agree a reunification (and the conflict seems insoluble, because they disagree on the wedding contract's terms) or going in their own way in a friendly manner, bad blood between Turkey and its Western allies will continue. Also, dickishness has some justification if you try to look the incident from the Turkish perspective, which doesn't mean that I agree or side with the Turkish administration. On the other hand, I think some dickishness is justified on my side given the plain hackishness of certain posters

[politicus]

1. Its not constructive to let our disagreement over the Israel/Palestine conflict spill over to other topics.

2 There are a number of problematic aspects with both Turkish society and the current Turkish government, so being critical of Turkey is a fully reasonable position.

2. Cyprus had a population distribution that was 80% Greek, 18% Turkish and 2% Armenian, when the Turks invaded, so the Cypriot government had every right to seek unification with Greece, it was a matter of national self determination.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

1. Its not constructive to let our disagreement over the Israel/Palestine conflict spill over to other topics.

2 There are a number of problematic aspects with both Turkish society and the current Turkish government, so being critical of Turkey is a fully reasonable position.

2. Cyprus had a population distribution that was 80% Greek, 18% Turkish and 2% Armenian, when the Turks invaded, so the Cypriot government had every right to seek unification with Greece, it was a matter of national self determination.

Given the way the Greeks and Turks have been acting like dicks to each other ever since 1919 (and before), if the Turks hadn't invaded after the Greek coup, the Turkish population of Cyprus would likely have ended up being ethnically cleansed by now if it were a part of Greece.  [Not entirely, but if Cyprus was over 5% Turkish after 40 years of Greek rule, I'd be extremely surprised.]  Granted, all the invasion did was ensure that it wasn't just Turks who got ethnically cleansed, but to pretend that everything would be hunky-dory if it weren't for the awful Turks is to ignore reality.

[Velasco]

1. Its not constructive to let our disagreement over the Israel/Palestine conflict spill over to other topics.

Maybe. However, two points:

a) More than with disagreements, I have an issue with misinformed hackishness and trivial spamming. Sorry if the prospect of building 5000 new houses in East Jerusalem and the Occupied Territories outrages me more than this issue, which resembles me the occasional incidents around the Rock of Gibraltar (I couldn't care less).

b) Sadly, the Israel-Palestine conflict pollutes everything in the Middle East. I pointed a couple of issues on the relations between Israel and Turkey/Cyprus and the economic interests of Israel in oil explorations.

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True, and those aspects are worthy of being discussed and criticised, preferably from a more informed perspective than the usual in western media. However, this issue is related with the Turk-Cypriot conflict started 40 years ago. The prime minister in 1974 was Bülent Ecevit (CHP) and not Erdogan or Davutoglu. I suspect that with a 'secular' government in office, the nationalistic dickishness would be even stronger.  As said before, the present context in the Middle East affects in some way the developments in the issue between Turkey and Cyprus.

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Disagree on unification. The attempt to establish the Enosis was sponsored by a reactionary military junta ruling in Greece by that time, while Turkey was a military managed secular democracy. As Ernest pointed out, the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922 was characterised by a strong nationalistic dickishness from both sides which ended in ethnic cleansing and population exchange. The Megali Idea sponsored by Venizelos was the antecent of the Greek-Cypriot Enosis. The dream of uniting Greek speaking populations in Asia Minor and the Aegean, at the expense of the crumbling Ottoman Empire, ended in a bloodbath and with a Greek presence in Anatolia which lasted millenia. Ultimately, it was an awful outcome for the Greek nation. The Turkish minority in Cyprus had every right to fear a reunification between Greece and Cyprus, given the historical context.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Perhaps Turkish "dickishness" is related to the repeated attempts of Greek Cypriots to unify with Greece while expelling or killing the Turkish Cypriots?

[politicus]

To Andi:

1) You can find excuses to drag Israel into the Cyprus question, but it is a bad idea if you want a serious discussion, especially to do it the way you did with comparisons to the settlements. People have very strong emotions on Israel/Palestine and it will inevitably block serious debate. Personally I consider all mentioning of Israeli settlements outside discussion of the actual Palestine conflict trolling.

2) Yes the Erdogan government is unrelated to the secular 1974-government, but it is after all the Erdogan government acting now and its policies we can discuss. The Turkish attitudes to Cyprus are generally unrelated to what government is in charge in Ankara and the same is, sadly, by and large the case when in comes to human rights in Turkey (at least if we disregard the periods under direct military rule).

3) You are putting way too much emphasis on the ideology of the regimes in charge in 1974. National self determination is a basic right and it doesn't matter if the governments involved are fascist, Islamist, liberal or socialist. It has been recognized as a right since the Versailles Treaty and in this context the two parties seeking unification where even two sovereign nation states.

4) The 1919-22 war was more than 50 years prior to the 1973-74 events and you can't say that ethnic cleansings occurring more than half a century earlier should inflict on the right of the Cypriot majority to seek  unification with Greece.

[MaxQue]

3) You are putting too much emphasis on the ideology of the regimes in charge in 1974. National self determination is a basic right and it doesn't matter if the governments involved are fascist, Islamist, liberal or socialist. It has been recognized as a right since the Versailles Treaty and in this context the two parties seeking unification where even two sovereign nation states.

And what about the self-determination of the Turk areas of Cyprus?

[politicus]

3) You are putting too much emphasis on the ideology of the regimes in charge in 1974. National self determination is a basic right and it doesn't matter if the governments involved are fascist, Islamist, liberal or socialist. It has been recognized as a right since the Versailles Treaty and in this context the two parties seeking unification where even two sovereign nation states.

And what about the self-determination of the Turk areas of Cyprus?

The relevant unit was the island of Cyprus, where the Turks where a relatively small minority. You can't establish micro-states for all minorities. There were no basis for a Turkish Cypriot state prior to the ethnic cleansing of 1974, which gave 18% of the population control over 40% of the island.

[politicus]

1. Its not constructive to let our disagreement over the Israel/Palestine conflict spill over to other topics.

2 There are a number of problematic aspects with both Turkish society and the current Turkish government, so being critical of Turkey is a fully reasonable position.

2. Cyprus had a population distribution that was 80% Greek, 18% Turkish and 2% Armenian, when the Turks invaded, so the Cypriot government had every right to seek unification with Greece, it was a matter of national self determination.

Given the way the Greeks and Turks have been acting like dicks to each other ever since 1919 (and before), if the Turks hadn't invaded after the Greek coup, the Turkish population of Cyprus would likely have ended up being ethnically cleansed by now if it were a part of Greece.  [Not entirely, but if Cyprus was over 5% Turkish after 40 years of Greek rule, I'd be extremely surprised.]  Granted, all the invasion did was ensure that it wasn't just Turks who got ethnically cleansed, but to pretend that everything would be hunky-dory if it weren't for the awful Turks is to ignore reality.

You are as usual putting words in my mouth Ernest. I never said things would be just fine, or that the Turks were awful. Just that the Greek Cypriots as the clear majority had the right of unification according to the principle of national self determination.

I do think that your claim of ethnic cleansing is exaggerated. Western integration in the form of NATO membership would have put a limit to what Greece could have done - they clearly had an interest in avoiding a conflict with the West and knew that Turkey was a more valuable ally for the US (and Western Europe) than them. The prospect of joining the EEC at some point would play a role after the fall of the junta.

[ingemann]

Funny how some people who see themselves as liberal and humanistic celebrate imperialism and ethnic cleansing, when it hit in their eyes acceptable targets like the indigenous population of Cyprus.

[Velasco]

Politicus:

1) How on Earth do you want a serious discussion in a thread entitled "Turkey being dicks near Cyprus?" The very title is trolling, to begin with. Of course, the Israeli policy on settlements and incidents between Turkey and Cyprus are different issues. However, given the emphasis put on the title, I mentioned a example of "being a dick" to our dear poster. That's all. Yes, the Israel-Palestine conflict provokes strong emotions. Certain posters on this Forum with narrow worldviews are constantly trolling on them, I'm fully aware of that.

On the other hand, the regional context and Israel in particular play some role on this issue. Admittedly, it's more related with economic interests than with the hideous settlements in and around Jerusalem. The drive of the Turkish foreign policy in the Middle East is relevant, as well the drive in the relations between the two countries involved in the conflict and Israel.

2) You do realise that the "attitude towards Cyprus" and human rights in Turkey are separate issues, don't you?   

The last question is complex and debatable, to say the least. While issues like the repression of the Gezi Park protests are worrying and regrettable, by no means is comparable the situation in the SE of Turkey with regards to 'secular' governments. Kurds are comparatively better with the AKP than they were under previous administrations, which denied every right to the Kurd minority, banned the Kurd language and exercised a brutal repression. While the Kurd question is still unsolved and is worsened by the ongoing conflict in Syria and Iraq, it would be unfair to say that Erdogan didn't take some little but symbolic steps. It's a fascinating issue but somewhat off-topic, don't you think?

3) The ideology of the Greek military government, as well the Kemalist nationalism, are relevant to understand events in 1974. Are right to self-determination and the merger of two independent countries the same issue? In any case, ethnic minorities like the Kurds in Turkey or the Turks in Cyprus are subject of rights. How can you say that the authoritarian nature of the Greek junta is not important? If that government was a threat to the very Greek citizens, Turks in Cyprus had more reasons to fear discrimination or some kind of ethnic cleansing.

4) The memory of the Greco-Turkish War was deeply rooted in Turkish and Greek peoples in 1974, 52 years after its conclusion. I guess that even nowadays persists in some way. I'm Spaniard and I can tell you about the lasting consequences of our Civil War.

In any case, I doubt that Enosis is on the table right now. The pending issue is the reunification of Cyprus in terms acceptable for the two main communities living on the island.

[dead0man]

My favorite part was when you said you couldn't care less about this issue.  You've put a lot of time into this issue you don't care about.  And I'm pretty sure you drop into every thread about Gibraltar too.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

politicus, the whole ten years prior to 1974 gives little confidence that a Cyprus unified with Greece would not have seen wholesale ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Cypriots.  Granted, for the reasons you mentioned, the Greeks would not have been seeking ethnic genocide of the Turkish minority of Cyprus, but rather a few atrocities combined with other pressures sufficient to cause the Turks to leave the island for the mainland.  But just because it wouldn't have been a wholesale massacre doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been a cleansing.

[Famous Mortimer]

1) No. That wasn't the case.

2) Even if it was the case in the 70s (which again, it wasn't), it certainly wouldn't still be true in 2014. No one, anywhere, wants to become part of Greece.

The original Cypriot constitution ensured over representation of Turks. The North should simply rejoin under that same constitution. There is no reason to give them any more autonomy/special privileges.

[Velasco]

My favorite part was when you said you couldn't care less about this issue.  You've put a lot of time into this issue you don't care about.  And I'm pretty sure you drop into every thread about Gibraltar too.

Did I put more time into this issue than you trolling into this board, zeroman? While I don't care too much about incidents like this, I have some interest in regional developments. On the other hand, it would be funny to drop in a thread related to Gibraltar, in order to support a military invasion. Not because of patriotic reasons (I couldn't care less), only because I believe in the abolition of tax havens (preferably by force ).