Turkey being dicks near Cyprus

[politicus]

1. Its not constructive to let our disagreement over the Israel/Palestine conflict spill over to other topics.

2 There are a number of problematic aspects with both Turkish society and the current Turkish government, so being critical of Turkey is a fully reasonable position.

2. Cyprus had a population distribution that was 80% Greek, 18% Turkish and 2% Armenian, when the Turks invaded, so the Cypriot government had every right to seek unification with Greece, it was a matter of national self determination.

[politicus]

To Andi:

1) You can find excuses to drag Israel into the Cyprus question, but it is a bad idea if you want a serious discussion, especially to do it the way you did with comparisons to the settlements. People have very strong emotions on Israel/Palestine and it will inevitably block serious debate. Personally I consider all mentioning of Israeli settlements outside discussion of the actual Palestine conflict trolling.

2) Yes the Erdogan government is unrelated to the secular 1974-government, but it is after all the Erdogan government acting now and its policies we can discuss. The Turkish attitudes to Cyprus are generally unrelated to what government is in charge in Ankara and the same is, sadly, by and large the case when in comes to human rights in Turkey (at least if we disregard the periods under direct military rule).

3) You are putting way too much emphasis on the ideology of the regimes in charge in 1974. National self determination is a basic right and it doesn't matter if the governments involved are fascist, Islamist, liberal or socialist. It has been recognized as a right since the Versailles Treaty and in this context the two parties seeking unification where even two sovereign nation states.

4) The 1919-22 war was more than 50 years prior to the 1973-74 events and you can't say that ethnic cleansings occurring more than half a century earlier should inflict on the right of the Cypriot majority to seek  unification with Greece.

[politicus]

3) You are putting too much emphasis on the ideology of the regimes in charge in 1974. National self determination is a basic right and it doesn't matter if the governments involved are fascist, Islamist, liberal or socialist. It has been recognized as a right since the Versailles Treaty and in this context the two parties seeking unification where even two sovereign nation states.

And what about the self-determination of the Turk areas of Cyprus?

The relevant unit was the island of Cyprus, where the Turks where a relatively small minority. You can't establish micro-states for all minorities. There were no basis for a Turkish Cypriot state prior to the ethnic cleansing of 1974, which gave 18% of the population control over 40% of the island.

[politicus]

1. Its not constructive to let our disagreement over the Israel/Palestine conflict spill over to other topics.

2 There are a number of problematic aspects with both Turkish society and the current Turkish government, so being critical of Turkey is a fully reasonable position.

2. Cyprus had a population distribution that was 80% Greek, 18% Turkish and 2% Armenian, when the Turks invaded, so the Cypriot government had every right to seek unification with Greece, it was a matter of national self determination.

Given the way the Greeks and Turks have been acting like dicks to each other ever since 1919 (and before), if the Turks hadn't invaded after the Greek coup, the Turkish population of Cyprus would likely have ended up being ethnically cleansed by now if it were a part of Greece.  [Not entirely, but if Cyprus was over 5% Turkish after 40 years of Greek rule, I'd be extremely surprised.]  Granted, all the invasion did was ensure that it wasn't just Turks who got ethnically cleansed, but to pretend that everything would be hunky-dory if it weren't for the awful Turks is to ignore reality.

You are as usual putting words in my mouth Ernest. I never said things would be just fine, or that the Turks were awful. Just that the Greek Cypriots as the clear majority had the right of unification according to the principle of national self determination.

I do think that your claim of ethnic cleansing is exaggerated. Western integration in the form of NATO membership would have put a limit to what Greece could have done - they clearly had an interest in avoiding a conflict with the West and knew that Turkey was a more valuable ally for the US (and Western Europe) than them. The prospect of joining the EEC at some point would play a role after the fall of the junta.