Game Moderation Abolition Amendment (Passed)

[Lumine]

Slot: 2 (General - PPT Administered)

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Senators Nix and TNF, as co-sponsors you have 24 hours to advocate for this amendment.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

That does say a lot... we're so used to the GM doing nothing that we don't notice when they're not there.

I need to think about this and it's knock-on impacts on other job-holders... but I am sympathetic to this move.

[Barnes]

If I may contribute from the position of a lowly citizen (but former Senator! ), I think this is a very good idea.  I have long been unconvinced by the effectiveness of the GM position and I would have voted for its abolition long ago, but the recent inactivity proves the point most effectively.

I don't see what's wrong with scrapping a role that obviously has not and will not work in the foreseeable future, and trying something else.

[Adam Griffin]

I want the position to work so badly, so very very badly, but I just don't know...perhaps if there was a tighter defining of the specific roles of the GM, it could be saved?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I want the position to work so badly, so very very badly, but I just don't know...perhaps if there was a tighter defining of the specific roles of the GM, it could be saved?

It's a two part problem

1. The position description, as you say, needs to be clearly defined.
but
2. The position needs to be really engaged and essentially, a pain in the arse for all who are involved in Government. The issue is, outside of one or two people, yourself included... there's no one who has the inclination to be that informed nuisance.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If we have come to the point where we are willing to just trash the position, then surely it is time to take the gloves off and go crazy before doing so.

[Dr. Cynic]

I have desperately wanted the position to succeed since I've been involved in Atlasia... But I suppose if this is a job that no one wants or can do... I dunno... I really want to see the job work and I've tried my best to figure out a way. It's not even a job I've ever even held. But I've worked on several pieces of legislation to try and make the job work... But if it's not going to work, then I'm tired of beating a dead horse.

But I still have to wonder how we are supposed to do things like budgeting and foreign and domestic news?

[Deus Naturae]

I agree that the GM should get out of the business of producing economic statistics, cost analyses, etc. But, I do think we need some sort of storyteller to generate major events for us to discuss. Should we just assume that everything that happens IRL also happens in Atlasia?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I agree that the GM should get out of the business of producing economic statistics, cost analyses, etc. But, I do think we need some sort of storyteller to generate major events for us to discuss. Should we just assume that everything that happens IRL also happens in Atlasia?

This is a frustration for me. I mean, there might be very overwhelming national/international stories (Ebola... hello) but because the GM doesn't mention it, it doesn't exist.

On the other side, I do think we need someone to give some sort of economic grounding in what happens here.

[sentinel]

I actively did nothing after the Thursday Night Massacre. Things needed to get back to normal and wait for the Presidential. Many of you complained, even Averroes, that I did too much or crossed a line. I stopped, and now Averroes complains again. I was going to be more active in November (depending on the President).

[Cranberry]

You know, I didn't ever comment on anything while being president here, but it guess there needs to be an exception of this here (maybe also since I'm going to come back soon! ). In my time in Atlasia, I have not seen a single time when we really needed a GM, let alone a time when we had a real GM. I came to Atlasia I guess the week before Nix resigned, I then was here during Griffin's aliens, Simfan's calendar, Napoleon doing nothing, the Thursday Night Massacre. Did we need a GM in any of these times? I think not. Did he do something constructive during this time? I think not. This is nothing against the guys who did the job, I am sure you did it with the best intentions and I know it's probably the single most ungrateful job in Atlasia. Yet I cannot think of a single time since I am here when there was really need of a GM; and we saw what happened when the GM did his thing and a few guys did not like it.
So yeah, if this is still on the floor when I come back, I'll definitely will vote for this.

[sentinel]

Without a GM, then this isn't a game then its just a forum where some users occasionally vote. There needs to be some simulation in a fantasy game.

[windjammer]

Senators Nix and TNF, my dear future colleagues,

Abolishing the office of Game Moderator is truly a wrong idea. This office is truly important for one specific reason: regional and federal activity. When I was representative, Archduke and Governor in the Midwest, the office of Game Moderator was extremely helpful for me because he made the cost analysis. No one can deny regional activity is actually falling, the biggest reason is I believe how difficult it is now to estimate cost analysis for budget bills, etc...

I believe the  Game Moderator office needs reforms (and oh my god, the GM amendment that is going to pass is clearly terrible because the GM would be too powerful), but I don't believe this office should be abolished. People seemed to have forgotten, but the Hagrid/Napoleon partnership was at the beginning really effective. A shame Nappy left Atlasia because of health problems.

I recall President Cranberry, while he was SoIA, doing a wonderful job for the events etc.
So maybe, instead of abolishing this office, we should reform this office by making the SoIA and the GM even closer, or by merging the SoIA and the GM office?

I don't believe abolishing this office is the right thing to do.

Best regards,
Senator-elect Windjammer

[windjammer]

This arrangement is better for people elected in the regions because they don't have this boring work to do. When the GM stopped doing all this stuff, that's just my impression, but I had the impression that activity started to decline in the regions.

Yes, this is a boring job, doing all of the cost analysis, but being GM, this is like being god, no?

[TNF]

I echo the comments made by my cosponsor.

[windjammer]

Wait, I don t understand??? Why my candidacy for this office would make you withdraw this bill???

Do you realize I would be extremely be incompetent? I wouldnt understand correctly the bills I would have to make the numbers because of the barrier language

[Dr. Cynic]

No, not really.

Here's an offer for you, Windjammer: Volunteer to serve as GM and I will withdraw this bill immediately.

Hell, I'd willingly do the job, I just am horrible at math. That's what's always kept me from trying to get the job before. I would take advantage to appoint a Deputy who would be willing to do all the things that I know I couldn't do, such as cost analysis.

The more important aspect to me has always been the news cycle, though. Few GMs have taken that part of the job seriously... I would at least like to hear from someone what their ideas are as far as the future of news in the game, which I feel is necessary for it to function. Otherwise, what more is the game really than us simulating elections? We could realistically just do whatever we wanted if there were no consequences as long as we were all personally popular. That thought really just divorces me from voting to get rid of the GM position.

[Dr. Cynic]

We could realistically just do whatever we wanted if there were no consequences as long as we were all personally popular.

As far as I can tell, this has been true of Atlasia throughout its entire history even with a Game Moderator.

Then the question becomes why do we bother worrying about what a bill costs or where you get money from or any of that stuff? Why do we bother being concerned about what the economy is doing or really doing anything different at all since all we seem to do is react to events that happen in real life. So if what we do changes nothing, why do we simulate anything past the elections themselves?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I'm just a citizen like Barnes, but I'd just like to say that I think this amendment is both a good idea and probably overdue.  It has become increasingly clear that as much as we may wish it weren't the case, GM is essentially a deadweight position.  Honestly, I don't see what the game would lose from the position's abolition at this point.

[Yelnoc]

We could realistically just do whatever we wanted if there were no consequences as long as we were all personally popular.

As far as I can tell, this has been true of Atlasia throughout its entire history even with a Game Moderator.

Then the question becomes why do we bother worrying about what a bill costs or where you get money from or any of that stuff? Why do we bother being concerned about what the economy is doing or really doing anything different at all since all we seem to do is react to events that happen in real life. So if what we do changes nothing, why do we simulate anything past the elections themselves?

Atlasia is an elections simulator. The governing structures obscure this, but there is no government simulation. Yes, legislation is debated and voted on, but then what? It is entered into the wiki, its content filters back into the political narrative of the time, but ultimately it is forgotten. It doesn't matter how dedicated the GM is, how much they write about 'the economy' or 'foreign affairs.' The GM cannot hold players accountable for their actions in government. The GM can always be ignored, and no amount of legislation will fix that. Because Atlas is an elections simulator, the only thing which matters is the campaigns. At the end of the day, players will vote based on their relationships with other players (friendships, yes, but also perceptions of dedication (e.g. activity) and political expediency).

As it stands, it doesn't matter how much a bill costs or where the money comes from. There is no money. There are only forum posts. Yet people go through great lengths to pretend that is not the case. For example, I spent much of 2011 tracking through the entire legislative history of the IDS and cross-referencing those bills to actually existing state budgets to create a budget for that region. I served as speaker for long enough that after each fiscal bill, the budget was updated. PiT and I made sure that Imperial spending stayed within the confines of what we considered to be "realistic." But at some point (perhaps after I left, it's been years so my memory is fuzzy) the budget stopped being updated. And it didn't matter. Because the budget was ancillary to the functionality of the game. The budget's primary function was always political. I took on the budget project when I was new to the game, in order to gain some credibility as a "serious" member of the legislature. That credibility allowed me to become Speaker and from there shape the narrative of the IDS (and in a small part, Atlasia) for about a year and a half.

Note how the GM does not make an appearance in the above story. The GM at the time was...Badger? I don't really remember. But whoever it was had their hands full trying to figure out the effects of some complex healthcare reform bill (reform from what? your guess is as good as mine). And I think they might have been studying to pass the bar exam, or something. Anyway, they had their hands full. The players were able to crunch the numbers on their own. However, there was never any simulation. We never heard about what effects our budget was having on the Imperial "economy" or whatever. The GM can't be everywhere. And even if the GM had been superhuman, it wouldn't have mattered. I remember when I served as SoIA and then GM I kept employment numbers for the regions which were tied directly to my perception of legislative "activity" in those regions. Nobody cared. I don't think anybody read my "office" thread.

The cold, hard truth is none of us want to play a government simulator. Sure, there are plenty of people who vocally wish the GM was more relevant, but no one is willing to empower him to that extent. Because doing so would require fundamentally altering the mechanics of this game. It would require introducing new ways to hold government actors accountable which supersedes the electoral system. For example, doing away with player-voter elections altogether in favor of GM-simulated elections which reward good governance and punish bad governance. That game might be fun if done correctly, but would likely need an actual programmed game engine to work. The alternative is to get rid of all aspects of government simulation altogether. To not worry about tracking the effects of past legislation, or even keeping tabs on past legislation. Rather, acknowledging all bills as what they really are, showpieces which allow elected officials to act out political debates for the benefit of their constituencies.

The current situation is exhausting and somewhat damaging. The game moderation staff are set up to fail. They can either bang their heads against a wall for the duration of their term or throw their hands up and be inactive. I spent a good portion of my GM term inactive due to not having a computer, but frankly, I was glad I had that excuse. And then as I sketched above, those players who do engage in the pageantry of drafting thorough budgets and complex laws gain significant political advantage not because of the content of their proposals, but rather because of the veneer of "seriousness" attached to their efforts. Because these are time-intensive endeavors, the system (perhaps I should say "the culture") gives an advantage to those who have an incredible amount of free time.

It is my position that eliminating the entire Game Moderation staff (that is, all members of the cabinet which engage in any sort of simulation regarding the economy, 'foreign affairs,' 'domestic affairs,' etc.) will rejuvenate the game. An Atlasia which does not try to mirror an actually existing nation but which focuses on the true meat of the game, the relationships between players and the electoral system, will be much healthier.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I disagree... I think context and external factors do mater.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Even in the absence of going all gov't sim without elections, we would be better with some kind of programmed engine, even if for just part of the GMs duties, then the present system.

[windjammer]

Well, I guess the vote will be scheduled before I swear. In case I would be able to vote, I intend to vote Aye.
The current system isn't working, if we abolish this office, we will be able to create something else in the future.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Get back to me when you find someone with the right combination of expertise in programming, system dynamics, and public policy who's willing to volunteer a few hundred hours of his or her free time.

There's no point in fantasizing about what we could do if we had unlimited resources.

Naturally, if you take something to the fullest extent and then try to contemplate the task at hand, you will undoubtedly find it to be the case.

You seem to have become rather pessimistic about everything and seem to reject out of hand neary every proposal that doesn't fit within a preset narrowly defined set of constraints set by yourself.

Kind of like "Don't go to the ME Windjammer, you'll be doomed!"

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well, I guess the vote will be scheduled before I swear. In case I would be able to vote, I intend to vote Aye.
The current system isn't working, if we abolish this office, we will be able to create something else in the future.

Do you have any ideas on that "Something else?"