Sexual harassment?

[solarstorm]

There's a video by the feminist Hollaback organization going viral on YouTube.
Some of you may already know it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

The opinions in the comment section are deeply divided on this issue, mainly between men and women.
What are your thought on this experiment? Which of the incidents do you consider sexist, which are normal male behavior?

[Bojack Horseman]

Some of them are. As with anyone, there's a polite way and a rude, sexist way to hit on someone. The ones where the guy was just saying "good morning" or whatnot, that's not sexual harassment. But when you're yelling "DAYYUUUMMM" or telling her she has a nice ass, clearly that's crossing the line.

[Tender Branson]

The vast majority of the comments are not, most of them are just natural.

If some hot woman is walking along and some guy says: "Hey, how are you ?" or "Hey, what's up ?" - it's not sexual harassment in my opinion, just a way of being nice or start a chat with that woman. Maybe the guy is single and just wants to meet some girl ? That could be annoying to some women, but some women may like it.

Of course, some of these behaviours are clearly sexual harassment, such as the guy who's walking next to her for 5 minutes and who won't piss off. Or the people who make clear sexual comments.

So, it's a mix of both really. But you shouldn't knee-jerkingly assume that every advance towards some woman is "sexual harassment" ...

[Tender Branson]

As for the poll: "Are the things happening in the video examples of sexual harassment?"

It says "examples", which means I have to vote "Yes, man" - even if not all of them are.

[solarstorm]

I agree with you, guys. It's absolutely okay to say "hi" to someone.
But to keep on walking beside a woman for minutes is truly appalling; I think it's even worse than shouting some naughty words at someone.

[politicus]

There is a lot of cultural conventions in this, but they are invading her space a lot and trying to provoke a reaction even if it is clearly unwanted. Demanding she responds to them and telling her to smile etc. Generally I would say that trying to verbally hit on a woman that is just minding her own business in an everyday environment is a sort of harassment. If you can't establish eye contact with a person, that is because he/she doesn't want contact, so going verbal without prior eye contact is a (mild) form of harassment.
A few of the comments are very polite greetings, but most of the outbursts would be annoying. I think its a mistake not to include winks, whistles etc. in the video, so you don't get the full picture, but it is an interesting experiment.

[H. Ross Peron]

The vast majority of the comments are not, most of them are just natural.

If some hot woman is walking along and some guy says: "Hey, how are you ?" or "Hey, what's up ?" - it's not sexual harassment in my opinion, just a way of being nice or start a chat with that woman. Maybe the guy is single and just wants to meet some girl ? That could be annoying to some women, but some women may like it.

Of course, some of these behaviours are clearly sexual harassment, such as the guy who's walking next to her for 5 minutes and who won't piss off. Or the people who make clear sexual comments.

So, it's a mix of both really. But you shouldn't knee-jerkingly assume that every advance towards some woman is "sexual harassment" ...

[solarstorm]

Shoshana Roberts, the actress in that video, has been receiving rape and death threats:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/30/living/hollaback-10-hours-walking-in-nyc/

[Mechaman]

At the end of the video it says that over 100 instances of "verbal street harassment" took place.  I strongly disagree with that.  Maybe if they did include the "countless whistles and winks" I would agree, however simply saying "hi" or "how you doing?" or even politely acknowledging a woman's beauty with "Hey beautiful" is not harassment.  Especially if the guy who said it acknowledges that she has no interest and goes about his day.

I know this is the Atlas Forum and that you get crucified for even acknowledging that you enjoy the appearance of attractive women, but much of this done in a very intellectually dishonest way.  I mean yes, she did not at all deserve the creeps who were following her.  She did not deserve the men who were demanding she smile at them or give them her phone number.  She did not deserve the many harassing comments she got on youtube and facebook.  That is wrong.

Unfortunately, in their attempt to combat "street harassment", the feminist group "Hollaback" has also somehow come out in defense of something I like to call "hot woman privilege".  Does the woman have a right to be hot?  Hell yes she does!  Does the woman have a right to wear whatever the hell she wants, including ass tight jeans?  Hell yes she does!  However, that it's considered harassment to even say hi to such a very pretty woman is testament to another double standard inherent in American society.  Maybe if Hollaback or some other group releases a video of a "plain Jane" doing the same experiment with a lot less comments and whistles I'll be less judgmental of the overall goal to depict male society in America as deeply flawed and forcing an unreasonable standard on women.  Because while saying "hi" is considered sexual harassment to some, I'd bet there are a lot of women and girls out there who would love to hear a guy say hello to them or want to hang out with them but are ignored by tons of men just because they don't fit the Cosmo/Maxim definition of beauty.

* Mechaman in a very successful relationship with a very beautiful young woman.  Please no MRA accusations.

[dead0man]

We should be proud of ourselves for not bringing race into this topic (it's a big deal on this topic in other places).

[Gustaf]

Um, let's be clear about one thing. There is a big difference between walking up to someone in a bar and striking up a conversation with them because you find that person attractive and what's happening in this video. Saying how are you doing to a woman on the street is not flirting. It's not a flirting type of situation. It's an assertion of power in allowing yourself to invade someone's private space without having to care about their opinion on it.

It is milder harassment, yes, but it still is.

[King]

Isn't this simply New Yorkers being New Yorkers?  I've only been a couple of times and I witnessed general foolery like this toward anyone who passes on the street and in the subway. I've never seen this behavior in public in Albuquerque, or Chicago, or Denver, or any other environment I've been in where there are women walking down the street alone.

Unrelated to this incident, but in general I will say, it really disgusts me how the prudes are attempting to hijack the cause of women's rights. This is something that has grown over the past couple of years, mainly as outlet sites like Tumblr have grown in popularity. Incidents like this for example are more reminiscent of the demands of the sexless 1950s patriarchy which demand Elvis hips be cut off on television and married couples be depicted in separate twin beds

It's an assertion of power in allowing yourself to invade someone's private space without having to care about their opinion on it.

For these kind of men, I would say its more angry powerlessness than feeling powerful. Most of these men were dumpy, short, and generally unappealing. I imagine they know they have no chance of getting any of the women they harass and so their only sexual thrill in their lives comes from this behavior. It's a sad, pathetic situation all around.

[Gustaf]

Isn't this simply New Yorkers being New Yorkers?  I've only been a couple of times and I witnessed general foolery like this toward anyone who passes on the street and in the subway. I've never seen this behavior in public in Albuquerque, or Chicago, or Denver, or any other environment I've been in where there are women walking down the street alone.

Unrelated to this incident, but in general I will say, it really disgusts me how the prudes are attempting to hijack the cause of women's rights. This is something that has grown over the past couple of years, mainly as outlet sites like Tumblr have grown in popularity. Incidents like this for example are more reminiscent of the demands of the sexless 1950s patriarchy which demand Elvis hips be cut off on television and married couples be depicted in separate twin beds

It's an assertion of power in allowing yourself to invade someone's private space without having to care about their opinion on it.

For these kind of men, I would say its more angry powerlessness than feeling powerful. Most of these men were dumpy, short, and generally unappealing. I imagine they know they have no chance of getting any of the women they harass and so their only sexual thrill in their lives comes from this behavior. It's a sad, pathetic situation all around.

I disagree that that is prudishness. I am very anti-prude but it's uncool to kiss someone in a professional situation like that.

The last paragraph I don't exactly disagree with. They lack power so they take it out on those they can. Which is women. The point is that most likely contributes to things like domestic abuse and rape as well which is why it's serious and not something to be waved away. Like, I am sorry your life sucks but that doesn't give you license to harass women.

To me it's useful as an analogy to use gay men. Would a gay man do this kind of stuff to a burly muscular guy? Probably a lot less because he'd fear having his teeth knocked in. There is an assertion of superiority in treating someone this way. Secondly, if we lived in a society dominated by gay men I suspect most of the guys not seeing the issue here would feel uncomfortable getting cat-called by them walkind down the street for every second.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Um, let's be clear about one thing. There is a big difference between walking up to someone in a bar and striking up a conversation with them because you find that person attractive and what's happening in this video. Saying how are you doing to a woman on the street is not flirting. It's not a flirting type of situation. It's an assertion of power in allowing yourself to invade someone's private space without having to care about their opinion on it.

It is milder harassment, yes, but it still is.

There are clearly different cultural expectations here then.  Not everyone would consider the street to be private space to the extent that saying "how you doing" could be an invasion of it. 

[King]

To me it's useful as an analogy to use gay men. Would a gay man do this kind of stuff to a burly muscular guy? Probably a lot less because he'd fear having his teeth knocked in.

If a burly muscular guy knocked the gay man's teeth in for calling him attractive as he walked down the street, whose side would you rush to defend in that situation? I would be more ashamed in the burly muscular guy's violence than than the cat calling annoyance of the gay man.

To me, it is a credit to women that there is no retribution for this kind of behavior whereas there would be in men. That is the moral high ground.

[New_Conservative]

Yes some of the examples are.

[Simfan34]

As anyone with the slightest bit of street savvy is undoubtedly aware, people who greet you on the street in New York City are rarely people who you want anything to do with. The derelicts in the video are not saying "hello" out of courtesy or neighborliness.

This. If you're talking to me, something is wrong with you.

[memphis]

When in an environment where there is a reasonable expectation that most people are in fact gay, gay men are much more likely to.... flirt aggressively with "a burly muscular guy" than straight men are inclined to do with attractive women. And it's usually not that big of a deal. If he's not interested, the burly muscular man in question will decline the invitation and life goes on. For a forum so full of gays, most of you people seem strikingly unfamiliar with the customs of the community. You'll certainly never see a thousand self-pitying articles about how terrible it is that strangers tell a gay he is attractive.

[politicus]

When in an environment where there is a reasonable expectation that most people are in fact gay, gay men are much more likely to.... flirt aggressively with "a burly muscular guy" than straight men are inclined to do with attractive women. And it's usually not that big of a deal. If he's not interested, the burly muscular man in question will decline the invitation and life goes on. For a forum so full of gays, most of you people seem strikingly unfamiliar with the customs of the community. You'll certainly never see a thousand self-pitying articles about how terrible it is that strangers tell a gay he is attractive.

1. There is no safety aspect in it for the "burly muscular man" (BMM). Aggressive flirtation is quite often intimidating to women.
 
2. BMM isn't in a majority gay environment most of the time, so its not tiresome and "grinding" in the same way.

[checkers]

As anyone with the slightest bit of street savvy is undoubtedly aware, people who greet you on the street in New York City are rarely people who you want anything to do with. The derelicts in the video are not saying "hello" out of courtesy or neighborliness.

Yes this. I'd say it applies to any city, really - while yelling hello might be in itself innocuous, it's usually a signal that something else is off.

I'd say for a hello to be courteous there has to be that aspect of mutual recognition: eye contact, maybe a smile, and then a greeting. It's very inconsiderate (and can be quite aggressive) to yell a greeting at someone when their body language obviously projects that they do not want to be approached (as was in the video). I'm not saying that it's necessarily harassment to say hello, but if it's not a mutual thing, it's weirdly invasive, and kind of a signal that your desire to chat is more important than the other person's desire to be left alone.

Anyway this is interesting. I think "cards against harassment" has been criticised for something similar.

[checkers]

When in an environment where there is a reasonable expectation that most people are in fact gay, gay men are much more likely to.... flirt aggressively with "a burly muscular guy" than straight men are inclined to do with attractive women. And it's usually not that big of a deal. If he's not interested, the burly muscular man in question will decline the invitation and life goes on. For a forum so full of gays, most of you people seem strikingly unfamiliar with the customs of the community. You'll certainly never see a thousand self-pitying articles about how terrible it is that strangers tell a gay he is attractive.

Those sorts of environments are usually specifically designed for meeting, flirting aggressively etc. It's not like the street which is and should be a neutral place where people should be able to go around their business free from flirting (which can be intimidating, and even if it isn't, is often awkward).

It's not like a stranger can't ever tell a woman she's attractive, but yelling it at a woman who obviously isn't looking to be approached is aggressive and inappropriate. It's also very counter-productive - I mean, really, has anyone ever gotten any from yelling at a woman in the street. I think street harassers know that perfectly well - it's not about meeting women, it's about assertion, which is very different to what you're talking about.

[memphis]

When in an environment where there is a reasonable expectation that most people are in fact gay, gay men are much more likely to.... flirt aggressively with "a burly muscular guy" than straight men are inclined to do with attractive women. And it's usually not that big of a deal. If he's not interested, the burly muscular man in question will decline the invitation and life goes on. For a forum so full of gays, most of you people seem strikingly unfamiliar with the customs of the community. You'll certainly never see a thousand self-pitying articles about how terrible it is that strangers tell a gay he is attractive.

1. There is no safety aspect in it for the "burly muscular man" (BMM). Aggressive flirtation is quite often intimidating to women.
 
2. BMM isn't in a majority gay environment most of the time, so its not tiresome and "grinding" in the same way.

1. Who's to say the other party isn't also a BMM? Perhaps even more so? I hope you're not suggesting that men cannot be the victims of sexual assault by other men.
2. You don't know that. Lots of gays keep to themselves in their own bubbles. People self-segregate intensely.
It's not that I can't see how being hit on all the time wouldn't get annoying after a while, and, in some cases, could be seriously threatening. But, with all the problems in the world, it seems so ridiculously conceited for a woman (or a man, though I've never seen one do it) to drone on and on about how men tactlessly compliment her appearance all the time. Really? That's your biggest Inksing problem in life?

[Cory]

At the end of the video it says that over 100 instances of "verbal street harassment" took place.  I strongly disagree with that.  Maybe if they did include the "countless whistles and winks" I would agree, however simply saying "hi" or "how you doing?" or even politely acknowledging a woman's beauty with "Hey beautiful" is not harassment.  Especially if the guy who said it acknowledges that she has no interest and goes about his day.

I know this is the Atlas Forum and that you get crucified for even acknowledging that you enjoy the appearance of attractive women, but much of this done in a very intellectually dishonest way.  I mean yes, she did not at all deserve the creeps who were following her.  She did not deserve the men who were demanding she smile at them or give them her phone number.  She did not deserve the many harassing comments she got on youtube and facebook.  That is wrong.

Unfortunately, in their attempt to combat "street harassment", the feminist group "Hollaback" has also somehow come out in defense of something I like to call "hot woman privilege".  Does the woman have a right to be hot?  Hell yes she does!  Does the woman have a right to wear whatever the hell she wants, including ass tight jeans?  Hell yes she does!  However, that it's considered harassment to even say hi to such a very pretty woman is testament to another double standard inherent in American society.  Maybe if Hollaback or some other group releases a video of a "plain Jane" doing the same experiment with a lot less comments and whistles I'll be less judgmental of the overall goal to depict male society in America as deeply flawed and forcing an unreasonable standard on women.  Because while saying "hi" is considered sexual harassment to some, I'd bet there are a lot of women and girls out there who would love to hear a guy say hello to them or want to hang out with them but are ignored by tons of men just because they don't fit the Cosmo/Maxim definition of beauty.

* Mechaman in a very successful relationship with a very beautiful young woman.  Please no MRA accusations.

[Lief 🗽]

Holy christ the comments in this thread. No one in that video is trying to just be nice or friendly to that woman. Street harassment of women is a huge problem in New York City. And the idea that it only happens to hot women is ridiculous and completely untrue. The sidewalk is not where normal people first meet each other. No woman (or man, but this doesn't happen to men) wants to start talking to some random stranger while she's just walking down the street.

I don't know if it's sexual harassment, but it's definitely harassment.

[ingemann]

People shouldn't comments on strangers look on the street, in fact if you don't know people you should begin to talk to them on the street unless it's to give them a warning (like "you shouldn't go down that street because...") or if you have a question about direction. Greetings or complaining over shared hardship (primary sh**tty weather) can be exceptions to this rule.

If you comments people's look or come with sexual comment, you are a obnoxious asshole, and shouldn't be out in public.