The Confederate Flag

[© tweed]

No, it shouldn't be banned. It shouldn't be flown on government property, but it certainly shouldn't be banned.

But you can't stop them from flying it on government property.

[PBrunsel]

The state's have the right to fly any flag they want.

[© tweed]

The state's have the right to fly any flag they want.

yes, I agree.

[migrendel]

Why in heaven's name would you want that at your state capitol? Whenever they gaze onto the lawn, a quarter of South Carolina's citizens are reminded that they are still second class citizens in the minds of many. If any state professes to value its residents and treat them as equals, it cannot maintain such a deeply offensive anachronism. I also do not buy this historical argument. The swastika is a historical symbol. The flag of the Crusaders is historical. But no one would support keeping them in a prominent place, because no one would be so disrespectful of the rightfully held feelings of Jews and Muslims.

I also find your "homeland" argument ridiculous, StatesRights. Your homeland is the United States of America, one nation indivisible where all men are created equal, not the Confederacy. You cannot deny that your alleged homeland was created to perpetuate the most grievous wrong that ever happened in this country, and glossing over that reveals more about your compassion than it does about our history.

Take it down. Its time has passed.

[??????????]

If the states vote that they want it up. Let them. It's not the business of the ACLU or whoever to come in and stop them.

First National:



Couldn't find the Second. Its the Third but w/out that red stripe.

Third :



This is the true "battle flag" This was used by the Army of Northern Virginia. The western flag was slightly different.

ANV Flag



This is a Western Flag



If anything the state capitols should fly the Third National to be accurate. Thats my opinion.

[??????????]

Why in heaven's name would you want that at your state capitol? Whenever they gaze onto the lawn, a quarter of South Carolina's citizens are reminded that they are still second class citizens in the minds of many. If any state professes to value its residents and treat them as equals, it cannot maintain such a deeply offensive anachronism. I also do not buy this historical argument. The swastika is a historical symbol. The flag of the Crusaders is historical. But no one would support keeping them in a prominent place, because no one would be so disrespectful of the rightfully held feelings of Jews and Muslims.

I also find your "homeland" argument ridiculous, StatesRights. Your homeland is the United States of America, one nation indivisible where all men are created equal, not the Confederacy. You cannot deny that your alleged homeland was created to perpetuate the most grievous wrong that ever happened in this country, and glossing over that reveals more about your compassion than it does about our history.

Take it down. Its time has passed.

It's exactly your "type" that have made southerners feel bad about their heritage for so many years. Obviously you know very little about history. Because if you actually took the time to pick up a book you would see that both blacks and whites fought under the C.S. Flag. I know you would deny it because you would hate to swallow the fact that, yes, blacks DID fight for the CSA and it was BEFORE the Northern Armies allowed it. I am an American, you are right, but I am a SOUTHERN American and have every right to be proud of what my people have done and accomplished for this nation.  Southerners, both black and white, built this nation and have had more troops die for the USA then any OTHER region in the U.S. If your ancestors hadn't been so hypocritical and had layed off of taxing the South to death, this little war situation would have never happened. So many of your rich elitists, who were so called "abolishonists" in those days built their fortunes on the slave trade and enslaving the Irish in their Hellhole factories.

[angus]

I did not know that statesrights.  They're all very pretty flags, for sure.  I do agree that this is a matter for the good people of the state of South Carolina to decide.  It is not for Floridians, californians, New Yorkers, etc., to decide for them.

Most of us, myself included, don't have an appreciation for this issue.  But if you're one of that 12.5% of the population for whom the flag conjures up memories of the Klan you might have a strong feeling about it.  Or if you're one of that 12.5% of the population whose ancestors fought the good fight in the name of liberty, even for the lost cause of states' rights, you might have a strong feeling about it.  I don't think anyone who is neither black nor descendents of southerners really gets it, because for the other 75 percent of us, it's just, "Hey why don't you just take it down?"  But if this is important to you, then fly it high, that's what I say.

"Now, watergate does not bother me.
Does your conscience bother you?"

[migrendel]

Yes, blacks did fight for the Confederacy. They did so once the South realized it needed everyone it could get. Just like they also worked in your mines, picked your fields, and made your armaments.

Yes, my ancestors were abolitionists and Radical Republicans. And I am proud that they saw the profound stain upon our national conscience, and they worked to right it. I have no shame that they wore wool instead of cotton, pamphletized with a fervor, and were sometimes hanged by pro-slavery mobs. Remember "Bleeding Kansas"? I am proud that we abolished slavery, and were on the right side of history.

[angus]

Yes, blacks did fight for the Confederacy. They did so once the South realized it needed everyone it could get. Just like they also worked in your mines, picked your fields, and made your armaments.

Yes, my ancestors were abolitionists and Radical Republicans. And I am proud that they saw the profound stain upon our national conscience, and they worked to right it. I have no shame that they wore wool instead of cotton, pamphletized with a fervor, and were sometimes hanged by pro-slavery mobs. Remember "Bleeding Kansas"? I am proud that we abolished slavery, and were on the right side of history.

It is true that MA became the first state to abolish slavery, around 1781 I think.  I guess the fire-and-brimstone are known for other things besides prohibitionism and witch-burning.  By the way, it is a little mentioned fact that the first victim of the Salem Witch Trials was a black slave named Tichiba.  (as long as we're engaging in this sort of ridiculous historical condescencion).

[??????????]

[quote ]
Yes, blacks did fight for the Confederacy. They did so once the South realized it needed everyone it could get. Just like they also worked in your mines, picked your fields, and made your armaments.

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They started forming regiments at the beginning of the war out of loyalty to their homeland.

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Bleeding Kansas? Oh, wasn't that when the "great" John Brown was catching infants with their pikes and killing women and children in their beds? If you think the North set out with the goal of freeing slaves you are fooling yourself. At least 90% of Northerners didn't give two craps about the black man. And as all undergarmets were made of cotton I am at least 99.9% sure they wore cotton which was imported from Egypt that was picked by the natives enslaved by the British.

[angus]

You're nastier than I am.

No, you're more elitist.

No, you come from planters, so you're the real elitist.

Well, you come from uptight moralists trying to save the world from itself.

Well, you have scabies.

Well, you have cooties.

Your scabies have cooties.

Your cooties have scabies.

You can't have your flag.  I am better than you.

You aren't better than I am.  I believe in liberty.

No I believe in liberty.

No I believe in liberty.

(oh, wait, we agree)

            yeah, right.  dream on.

[dazzleman]

I have no feeling in favor of the confederate flag but I don't favor banning it.

Aside from free speech and constitutional considerations, there are 2 reasons I don't think it should be banned:

-I don't trust the agenda of those pushing to ban it.  Many of the people pushing to ban the flag think that American society is fatally compromised by past mistreatment of blacks, and they will not be appeased by the banning of this flags.  If they win this battle, the stars and stripes are next.

-A fight against the confederate flag is diverting energy from issues that matter to blacks, like job training, family structure and education.  In my opinion, many black groups would much rather fight the battles of the 1960s, which they already won, and which put all the onus for action on other people, than deal with the issues and conditions that exist today.  This confederate flag issue, like most issues raised today by groups like the NAACP, is more a dodge from reality and an avoidance of dealing with real problems than an actual issue.

[??????????]

Angus and Dazzleman both make excellent points.

[12th Doctor]

I believe that the flag should stay.  I was against it being taken down in South Carolina.  The fact is that it is a symbol of heritage and flying it doesn't make one a racist.  If it does then I suppose that I am a racsist because I have flown that flag in the past.

[migrendel]

Not necessarily a racist, but one who has cast an aspersion on the fine state you live in, supersoulty.

I am also baffled by your omnipresent use of the word "elitist". I do not understand it. Fighting for equality of all citizens is the ultimate in humility and denial of self-importance. But you need your label. You have labeled those who have fought for freedom of decision and freedom of love, and those who have tried to foster camaraderie among all people such. If being humble is the alternative, than we in our allegedly cloistered, narrow-minded Yankee ways take pride in our elitism.

Two questions: Why do you use that word? Do you agree that it was correct to abolish slavery?

[12th Doctor]

Two questions: Why do you use that word? Do you agree that it was correct to abolish slavery?

Of course I think abolishing slavery was the proper thing.  I don't believe that the Confederate flag nessesarly repressents slavery.  It represents hertitage.  That's all.  What to interpriet that as is a individual matter.

As for your second question (please be patient, because I have had more than a few glasses of Jim Bean) political theory shows us that there are two types of of theorists, elites and populists.  I am more of a populist.  Clearly most people who come for the "intelletual havens" of the northeast are elitists.  I have said in the past that I respect you because you are genuine.  But I see in liberals more of a distainful attitude toward conservatives then the other way around.  Many liberals seem to make quite a habit of putting down southerners and rural people in general.  It is the elitests type attitude that they take toward southerners, ruralites and the poor in general that I can't stand.  I personally see little in the way of striving toward camaraderie in how they approch these people.  I am certainly one to fight for equality for all citizens, for I believe that all people are equal in the eyes of God.  I believe that most people of my persuasion see it that way, it is just that liberals have mischarecterized many of our possitions into the idea that we are a bunch of racist, sexist, bigot, homophobes and this is not the case.  At the same time, if there are those who see things such as homosexuality as a sin, then I respect their beliefs, just as long as they don't HATE homosexuals.  If there are those who believe that abortion should be legal, I don't understand their views, but I believe they are entitled to their opinion as long as they aren't militantly against those who see it differently.  I know that that may be a rarity amoung conservatives, but conservatives tend to believe that pro-abortionists are just misguided, while pro-abortionists seem to maintian the belief that anti-abortionists are terrible people, bigots and are anti-womens rights.

Anyway getting back to the point.  There are elitests on both sides, but New England liberals seem to have developed it into a way of life.

[??????????]

I believe it was in the long run correct to abolish slavery. The manner in which it was done I disagree with. A slow method over 20-50 years would have had much less of a detrimental effect on the economy of the south.

[migrendel]

I believe that most pro-life people do what they sincerely think is right, and have the best of intentions, but I do not see how anyone could be described as supportive of women's rights if they cannot support the foundation of her liberty, the right to govern her fertility.

[tigerfan04]

Personally, I feel taking the flag off of the capitol building was the right thing to do.  Heritage or hate were irrelevant.  South Carolina is not a part of the CSA, that nation no longer exists.  Therefore, the only flags that have any right to be on the statehouse are the American and SC flag.  I am, however, against the removing the flag from the monument, and against the NAACP boycott, although it appears to be having no negative effect other than bringing negative publicity to the state.

[Fritz]

Exactly what do you mean by "banned"?  Should it be illegal to have one in your posssession?  Even as a bumper sticker?  Absolutely not.  The flag has historical significance, and I think that is within a person's fundamental rights to display the flag if they choose.

It should be removed from all state flags, but each state must take care of that themselves.

[??????????]

So a state has no right to decide what they put on their flag? Ridiculous. IF the people vote with a majority to change the flag and put the CS Flag on it, it's in their RIGHT as a state.

[angus]

It should be removed from all state flags, but each state must take care of that themselves.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but don't you see a contradiction in this statement Fritz?  Look carefully.

[Fritz]

Perhaps I wasn't very clear.  I believe the Confederate flag *should* be removed from state flags.  However, it is within each states rights to have whatever flag they choose for their state.  I would be in favor of the legislatures of those states voting to remove this divisive emblem from their state flag.  I would not be in favor of the federal government stepping in, and mandating that the Confederate flag must be removed from state flags.

Was that more clear?

[angus]

Perhaps I wasn't very clear.  I believe the Confederate flag *should* be removed from state flags.  However, it is within each states rights to have whatever flag they choose for their state.  I would be in favor of the legislatures of those states voting to remove this divisive emblem from their state flag.  I would not be in favor of the federal government stepping in, and mandating that the Confederate flag must be removed from state flags.

Was that more clear?

got it.  yes that's everyone's position except the massachusetts moralist, as far as I can tell.  

[Fritz]

I also think Hawaii should get rid of the British Union Jack on their state flag....not really sure why they have it there...