Should state legislative districts been drawn by independent commissions?

[Beet]

You obviously knew this question was going to come up. It's unethical that in 37 states, legislatures draw their own districts. That would be like having Congress draw its own districts. It's eminently corrupt.

[Lief 🗽]

All legislative districts should be drawn by independent commissions. But yes, state legislators drawing their own districts is particularly egregious.

[muon2]

Given the easy access to the internet and familiarity with software like Google Maps, I think we can do better than just a commission. A commission should provide the public with data and mapping tools as some states have done. The commission should also provide the public with clear criteria about how a map should be judged before the data is released, since too often the criteria emerge afterward to justify the map that was produced. Then the commission should solicit maps from the public and based on their own previously released criteria select the map from the submissions.

[Frodo]

Sure -but this reeks of hypocrisy.  It is easy for an outside observer to ask: why are Democrats only now bitching about it?  We never complained about it so long as we were the ones dominating the redistricting process (to the victor go the spoils), but now that Republicans (by and large) are in the driver's seat and we are in the receiving end, all of a sudden the idea of political parties drawing their own districts is an egregious sin.  

So it's tempting to dismiss this proposal as just sour grapes...  

[Ban my account ffs!]

Elect all congress critters AL like in MN after 1930.  And watch progressive candidates clean the retards of the world out of congress.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Sure -but this reeks of hypocrisy.  It is easy for an outside observer to ask: why are Democrats only now bitching about it?  We never complained about it so long as we were the ones dominating the redistricting process (to the victor go the spoils), but now that Republicans (by and large) are in the driver's seat and we are in the receiving end, all of a sudden the idea of political parties drawing their own districts is an egregious sin.  

So it's tempting to dismiss this proposal as just sour grapes...  

Republicans benefited from gerrymandering to lesser extent last decade. Just not as much as now.

[TNF]

Just get rid of elections for state legislatures to begin with. Select the legislature by sortition (most legislatures are part-time as is) and let the people govern themselves rather than be governed by representatives who more often than not have conflicting interests with the people they are supposed to represent.

[Marokai Backbeat]

All legislative districts should be drawn by independent commissions.

[New_Conservative]

All legislative districts should be drawn by independent commissions.

[politicallefty]

I agree with the majority here and I've maintained that position for as long as realized it was an issue. However, the biggest problem with gerrymandering now is that advanced software virtually guarantees maximum advantage to the party in power. It's now taken to the literal extremes, especially when you look at a state like North Carolina (or Illinois, if you want to look at one of the very few aggressive Democratic gerrymanders). Ultimately, I don't care which party does it. Neither party should be able to gerrymander. It is fundamentally unfair and anti-democratic.

[Dave from Michigan]

How big are state house seats in some states? In Michigan they are 77 to 92k each at this size it seems like you can't really gerrymander that much especially if there are rules like compactness and keeping cities and townships together. The state senate here is closer to around 260k and there are a lot more chances to gerrymander. Plus with state house districts that small you could actually talk to a lot of people in the district and win a district that leans the other way. Our state rep himself knocked on our door and my mom chatted for 10-12 minutes with him.

[ElectionsGuy]

Yes, get rid of partisan control of drawing districts.

[muon2]

How big are state house seats in some states? In Michigan they are 77 to 92k each at this size it seems like you can't really gerrymander that much especially if there are rules like compactness and keeping cities and townships together. The state senate here is closer to around 260k and there are a lot more chances to gerrymander. Plus with state house districts that small you could actually talk to a lot of people in the district and win a district that leans the other way. Our state rep himself knocked on our door and my mom chatted for 10-12 minutes with him.

There are probably about 33K households in a typical MI state house seat. If a representative spends 20 hours a week knocking on doors for half the year (assume session for the other half) and 10 minutes per household then they will get to only 1 in ten of the houses they represent in a year. And that's a lot of time going door-to-door and not working on other district activities.

We've did some analysis on MI-styled rules over on the other board, and it's surprising how well one can still gerrymander with only those constraints (compactness isn't a very strong rule in MI). It's enough that the legislature could stay R even through the 2012 presidential year.

[MurrayBannerman]

It'd be nice, but it would have a marginal effect at best.

[H. Ross Peron]

All legislative districts should be drawn by independent commissions.

[Indy Texas]

Sure -but this reeks of hypocrisy.  It is easy for an outside observer to ask: why are Democrats only now bitching about it?  We never complained about it so long as we were the ones dominating the redistricting process (to the victor go the spoils), but now that Republicans (by and large) are in the driver's seat and we are in the receiving end, all of a sudden the idea of political parties drawing their own districts is an egregious sin.  

So it's tempting to dismiss this proposal as just sour grapes...  

I've always believed it's unwise for one party to do to the other something they wouldn't want done to themselves were the shoe on the other foot. Think of it as a more cynical corollary to the Golden Rule.

Of course, it's tempting to say, "We'll treat the other party like crap, but then when they have a majority and push us around, we'll just get the public riled up and put a stop to it."

In Texas, it's common knowledge that the Democrats always split Republican-leaning cities like Tyler-Longview and Midland-Odessa and Dallas into multiple districts where the rural Democratic vote would overwhelm the urban/suburban Republican vote. And they didn't have to worry about any VRA-related challenges to those actions. So it's hard to sympathize when the entire city of Austin today has no congressman of its own, instead being represented by various rural/suburban Republican legislators who don't live there.

[Miles]

All legislative districts should be drawn by independent commissions.

[IceSpear]

All legislative districts should be drawn by independent commissions.

[The_Doctor]

Independent commissions aren't democratic or fair in nature. They're unelected commissions that impose state lines with little in the way of ratification from the legislature in most states. They can and are unfairly influenced by the major parties (California is one such example).

If you consider it, legislatures are directly elected by the people. The governor also has to sign off on it and he or she is a statewide elected officer (this is the case for every state except in North Carolina). It's not a perfect system but at least it's a system devised by people who are directly answerable to constituents. This is one reason it's better than an independent commission.

Redistricting also does not and never will override popular will. They may make lines more favorable to the party doing it but they cannot override mass rejection. The South is a key example of this, particularly the Arkansas legislature. Four years ago it was solidly Democratic. Today it has transformed into a Republican state at every level. This was done in spite of the favorable lines drawn to the Democratic Party.

And they don't obviate other ways to express popular discontent. For example Maryland had a referendum on our 2010 redistricting. It upheld it,  showing the state broadly approved of it. In most states, in fact, statewide officers have to approve any redrawing of the lines. And most states have a way to put such issues on the ballot for ratification. 

The people raising this topic the most are Democrats. I feel this is a case where Democrats are upset despite the fact that they have been marginal beneficiaries for decades. It also is much easier to blame electoral losses on stuff like gerrymandering. (Much like it's easy to blame an election loss on minorities and free gifts promised for the Republican side). It ignores the deeper issues with why an election was won or lost.

There are other arguments against this (for one thing it means little if you win the House popular vote but don't take a majority given the nature of VRA, urban districts, and geography). But I would feel the above covers some of the main points.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The easy solution would be multi-member districts IMO.

Gerrymandering beyond anything else leads to stagnation. Incumbents sit in their districts for decades, facing paper opponents never adapting. If term limits are in place, then parties shuffle one hack after another, never needing to try beyond ensuring genial old farts are in power. Ensured majorities and entrenched incumbents don't just make for boring elections. They make for laziness and taking the vote for granted. And it all can spiral out of control very quickly indeed, as when the economy eventually poos itself, your surging opponents can smugly point out that your own party was controlling the levers for the past eon. And then they rewrite the books, and the cycles repeat. Enjoy political obscurity for a few decades!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Capps and Slaughter now gave to work for it because they had reasonably good maps drawn, though aspects in both could have been better.

The same applies for state legislature.

[solarstorm]

The FPTP system should be abolished and open (!!!) party lists should be implemented instead.
If only a small number of representatives are to be elected, they list should apply to the whole state.
If the number of representatives to be elected is too big, there should be county lists.

P.S.: As soon as I read the term "independent" I know that they really mean "subtly partisan"...

[nclib]

All legislative districts should be drawn by independent commissions.

P.S.: As soon as I read the term "independent" I know that they really mean "subtly partisan"...

"Subtly partisan" is better than explicitly partisan.

Yes, I know that Democrats have done it, but on balance non-partisan drawn districts are (and were) beneficial to society.

[nclib]

Redistricting also does not and never will override popular will. They may make lines more favorable to the party doing it but they cannot override mass rejection. The South is a key example of this, particularly the Arkansas legislature. Four years ago it was solidly Democratic. Today it has transformed into a Republican state at every level. This was done in spite of the favorable lines drawn to the Democratic Party.

AR and WV are extreme cases of a state having a strong shift in party identification. In most cases (at least today), gerrymandering does misrepresent the populace. And there are other ways besides partisanship; convenience, communities of interest, etc.

[Indy Texas]

Just get rid of elections for state legislatures to begin with. Select the legislature by sortition (most legislatures are part-time as is) and let the people govern themselves rather than be governed by representatives who more often than not have conflicting interests with the people they are supposed to represent.

The lobbyists would love that. Your average John Q. Public off the street can be bought much more cheaply than a seasoned legislator. Get him in your corner with some Frank Luntz-style soundbites and then seal the deal with some NFL tickets and a tote bag.