Obama to announce executive order on immigration
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  Obama to announce executive order on immigration
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Author Topic: Obama to announce executive order on immigration  (Read 16661 times)
Likely Voter
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2014, 09:28:30 PM »

Romney did not lose in 2012 because of immigration or Hispanics. It might have been closer, but Hispanics had nothing to do with Romney losing OH, IA, NH and Wisconsin and Romney needed at least one of those (OH) even with VA, FL and CO where minority voting had an impact.

Romney would have lost amongst Hispanics anyway for the same reason he lost overall because he offered nothing that could promise a better outcome for low income working and middle class voters. No healthcare alternative, nothing stubstantive on education, didn't endorse minimum wage hike until over a year afterwards and so forth.

Mitt Romney actually did better with whites than Bush Jr. (59% vs 58%). So Romney's loss is entirely down to his extremely poor performance with non-whites. Romney 'self-deportation' and hard anti-immigration positions in the primaries (along with others in the party) were definitely a factor.

The 2013 GOP autopsy noted that the party lost because of how poorly it did with the 'Obama coalition' and mostly talked about communicating better with young voters, women, LGBT and minorities. But there was only one single policy position it endorsed: comprehensive immigration reform. 

The math is simple. If the rise in the non-white % continues into 2016 and if the GOP gets the same 18% as the last two elections, they will need 64% of the remaining white vote to win, something they have only done once in the last 10 elections (Reagan 84).
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2014, 10:09:08 PM »

I'm happy he is doing it, but he just ruined anything else happening you might like in his presidency, a fact you all know but won't admit. 

That assumes McConnell and Boehner would actually let Obama have any accomplishments. What did he get in return for reaching across the aisle in 2009-2010 again?
It's not them who you need to worry about, it's the one's who wouldn't have voted with those two.  Both are going to face big defections from both the right and left, and Obama could have capitalized on it, if he didn't do this.  Now he is just too toxic for rep's to touch him.
No, Obama could not have done it.  The elusive era of bipartisanship many fondly remember was back when we had three parties, Republicans, Democrats, and Southern Democrats.  To return to anything like that, we need to have a situation where we have three parties with two of them united under a common banner and comfortable with that fact.  Possibly in a decade or two we could have something like that again if the Tea Party Republicans and the Regular Republicans start to peacefully coexist instead of threatening each other in the primaries over the soul of the party.

I could see that world developing if the tea party fractures the next time Republicans have control.  Except it would probably be libertarian-infused mainline R's, perhaps led by Rand Paul, progressive Democrats and so-con R's, perhaps led by Huckabee.  But it would be the reverse of the mid 20th century.  Republicans formally control congress 75% of the time.  A center-left social agenda easily passes, but there will be a long stalemate on economic issues unless the mainline R's or progressive D's have a supermajority.
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ag
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« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2014, 10:43:09 PM »


Romney would have lost amongst Hispanics anyway for the same reason he lost overall because he offered nothing that could promise a better outcome for low income working and middle class voters. No healthcare alternative, nothing stubstantive on education, didn't endorse minimum wage hike until over a year afterwards and so forth.

The issue is not winning among Hispanics - at this point no Republican presidential candidate can do this. The issue is turnout. There is one sure way to fire up Hispanic turnout - make the immigration reform very salient. In addition to doing wonders to excite Hispanics (and, BTW, Asians) by itself it may also have a spectacular side-effect of encouraging some Republicans say things that will be viewed as highly offensive even by the most conservative third-generation Cubans.
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ag
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« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2014, 10:44:48 PM »

Message to the GOP...



Obama and the Dems want you to shut down the government over this. They know that the only GOPer to win the PV in the last 6 elections (Bush 2004) got 44% of the Latino vote (by supporting immigration reform) and Mitt Romney got 27% (by pushing 'self-deportation')

Exactly. And, even if the government stays open, most definitely a few people can be relied upon to say things that will make great news (and, later, commercials) on Univision.
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ag
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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2014, 10:49:12 PM »

This is perfectly exemplified in the lack of trust towards Obama and doing this will have destroyed any chance to address this legislatively and perhaps that is a good thing considering where the entire media and most of the leadership is now on the issue.

There has always been zero chance in hell of addressing this legislatively. Too toxic for too many people. But, if played well, it will make for a great Hispanic turnout next time.
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ag
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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2014, 10:51:16 PM »

I'm happy he is doing it, but he just ruined anything else happening you might like in his presidency, a fact you all know but won't admit. 

Well, perhaps he has figured out that there isn't that much happening in the rest of his presidency, and will now be working full-time for Hillary campaign. 
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Comrade Funk
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« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2014, 10:51:44 PM »

Human beings aren't illegal, yet the supposed Christian party believes otherwise.
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ag
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« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2014, 10:53:26 PM »

KCDem is right, as is increasingly becoming the case. If they want to stay here legally, then they're gonna have to pay. Luckily, they can pay in votes, which are free and you get a sticker after, so it's actually not that bad.

The issue is not the - currently illegal - immigrants voting. That will not happen for the moment - there is no naturalization path feasible without congressional action. The issue is the Hispanic citizens of the US voting - and, oh, yeah, they will, if this works out as designed.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2014, 11:01:04 PM »

KCDem is right, as is increasingly becoming the case. If they want to stay here legally, then they're gonna have to pay. Luckily, they can pay in votes, which are free and you get a sticker after, so it's actually not that bad.

The issue is not the - currently illegal - immigrants voting. That will not happen for the moment - there is no naturalization path feasible without congressional action. The issue is the Hispanic citizens of the US voting - and, oh, yeah, they will, if this works out as designed.

Yes, their friends and family will be voting on their behalf.
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2014, 11:02:03 PM »

We the people of America demand that the amnesty order be struck down by the courts
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2014, 11:04:32 PM »
« Edited: November 13, 2014, 11:07:11 PM by Senator North Carolina Yankee »

Romney did not lose in 2012 because of immigration or Hispanics. It might have been closer, but Hispanics had nothing to do with Romney losing OH, IA, NH and Wisconsin and Romney needed at least one of those (OH) even with VA, FL and CO where minority voting had an impact.

Romney would have lost amongst Hispanics anyway for the same reason he lost overall because he offered nothing that could promise a better outcome for low income working and middle class voters. No healthcare alternative, nothing stubstantive on education, didn't endorse minimum wage hike until over a year afterwards and so forth.

Mitt Romney actually did better with whites than Bush Jr. (59% vs 58%). So Romney's loss is entirely down to his extremely poor performance with non-whites. Romney 'self-deportation' and hard anti-immigration positions in the primaries (along with others in the party) were definitely a factor.

The 2013 GOP autopsy noted that the party lost because of how poorly it did with the 'Obama coalition' and mostly talked about communicating better with young voters, women, LGBT and minorities. But there was only one single policy position it endorsed: comprehensive immigration reform.  

The math is simple. If the rise in the non-white % continues into 2016 and if the GOP gets the same 18% as the last two elections, they will need 64% of the remaining white vote to win, something they have only done once in the last 10 elections (Reagan 84).

You missed my point. If Romney had never said those words, he would have still lost the Presidential election in the midwest because of the auto bailout and his lack of an appealing agenda. The popular vote doesn't determine the winner and performing better flips FL, VA, CO and maybe NV, as well as the popular vote but Obama still wins. And again, just endorsing amnesty" would not have yielded stronger support to Romney amongst Hispanics.

The so called autopsy is garbage. It's only recommendation is a policy proposal that merely by their own admission gets the foot in the door, it doesn't win anybody. No hispanic is going to fall over his or herself to go and vote Republican because Republicans vote for an immigration bill that OBama signs. They cannot take credit for it without the Presidency and the "taking it off the table" theory fails to account for 1) The victory lap Obama takes for the Dems will earn it greater support in the community and 2) THE GOP STILL OFFERS THEM NOTHING.
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2014, 11:05:38 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.
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Comrade Funk
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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2014, 11:06:20 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.
hURR DURR COMMUNAZI MUSLIM
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2014, 11:07:26 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.
hURR DURR COMMUNAZI MUSLIM

Yeah, no. It's called separation of powers.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2014, 11:09:57 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.

I agree. Begin the proceedings! The Kenyan Muslim must be stopped.
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2014, 11:12:50 PM »

Indeed. Impeach! Then impeach him again.  And rub feces on posters of him. 

I hope a short little Mexican takes your job, countryclass.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2014, 11:13:49 PM »

The 2013 Autopsy was an embrace by the GOP of the mantra of big money donors who went around going "I Told You So". The values and interests of it and the leaderships approach since then reflects entirely their own and thus has no connection to that of the minority voters that are allegedly are to be obtained by taking their advice. It leads me to believe that their suggestions are not meant to obtain a better, stronger GOP, but to finally derive the long sought objective of a special interest group, which is another flawed immigration bill designed to fail to ensure a constant supply of slave labor for them.

Otherwise there would have been proposals on a broader range of issues designed to appeal to all working and middle class voters, which was noticeably absent.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2014, 11:15:32 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.

How? Roll Eyes
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2014, 11:21:29 PM »

Indeed. Impeach! Then impeach him again.  And rub feces on posters of him. 

I hope a short little Mexican takes your job, countryclass.

Hope away!
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2014, 11:22:02 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.

How? Roll Eyes

How what? If the President of the United States usurps federal law, he should be impeached.
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ag
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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2014, 11:33:45 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.

How? Roll Eyes

How what? If the President of the United States usurps federal law, he should be impeached.

I guess, the sole overriding objective in your life is to ensure election of a Democratic president in 2016. You should change to a red avatar, though.
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« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2014, 11:43:11 PM »

Obama is behaving like a dictator. He has no right to force amnesty on America.  If he does, impeachment proceedings must begin.
Attempting to impeach Obama (attempting, because there's no way the Republicans would get the 67 votes necessary to succeed) would be great news for Hillary and democratic candidates in 2016.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2014, 11:52:20 PM »

We the white people of America demand that the amnesty order be struck down by the courts
Since you seem to have left out a word you were thinking, I fixed that for you.

That said, while I understand where Obama is coming from, and I applaud the humanitarianism behind it, I don't like it.  I don't like the means used, and I like even less that he is making real a boogieman of the xenophobes, anchor babies. "So you want to live in the Estados Unidos? Sneak in, have a child and then you and your spouse can do so free and clear!"

Our immigration policy is a mess and I don't see how this well-intentioned addressing of the problems it causes will in the long run be good.  It has short term benefits for those caught up in it, but if anything, it makes the long term problem even worse.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2014, 12:17:39 AM »

Amazingly, this is the most glaring example of what I have been saying about most of the so called reform bills, in that in a misguided attempt at a "fix" the problem will be worsened. Giving amnesty alone makes it worse by encouraging others to make the same choice (they got amnesty, all I have to do is get there and sooner or later I will too), giving it like this will blow up Congress and heighten animousity towards illegals and potentially move the until now favorable numbers nationwide with regards to support for a path to legalization/citizenship. We have already seen numbers showing opposition in places like IA and many of the midwest swing states even with all the support and promotion from both sides and the media.


I can tell you someone who is really not liking this at all, is Mary Landrieu.
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2014, 12:45:47 AM »
« Edited: November 14, 2014, 12:55:49 AM by Skill and Chance »

Amazingly, this is the most glaring example of what I have been saying about most of the so called reform bills, in that in a misguided attempt at a "fix" the problem will be worsened. Giving amnesty alone makes it worse by encouraging others to make the same choice (they got amnesty, all I have to do is get there and sooner or later I will too), giving it like this will blow up Congress and heighten animousity towards illegals and potentially move the until now favorable numbers nationwide with regards to support for a path to legalization/citizenship. We have already seen numbers showing opposition in places like IA and many of the midwest swing states even with all the support and promotion from both sides and the media.


I can tell you someone who is really not liking this at all, is Mary Landrieu.


Landrieu is doomed anyway.  So were Pryor, Begich, Braley, and Grimes if Dems were being honest with themselves in October.  By contrast, doing it in September could have easily put Udall and Crist over the line, saved the NV Assembly, NM House and CO Senate, and increased urban turnout in NC and VA enough to save Hagan and give Warner an Obama 2012 level win.

The only winning Dem who could plausibly have been sunk by this was Shaheen.  MN and MI might have gotten closer but the margin was too high for them to flip outright.  Obama severely miscalculated here by not realizing early enough that the Senate was lost.  Having 48 vs. 46 seats would help a great deal going into 2016.

Basically, all of the populist McCain Dems were already doomed and the close races that could have been saved were in diverse Dem leaning states.
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