Obama to announce executive order on immigration
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  Obama to announce executive order on immigration
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Author Topic: Obama to announce executive order on immigration  (Read 16663 times)
Brittain33
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« Reply #200 on: November 21, 2014, 12:45:53 PM »

Our federal government is broken. Obama's executive order is part of the breaking. But he's doing this because Congress is broken. And no, hand waving about "the Constitution" is not an excuse for Congress's dysfunction. The filibuster and gerrymandering are nowhere in the constitution and they have made governance close to impossible.

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Beet
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« Reply #201 on: November 21, 2014, 12:54:39 PM »

Well, I don't know. On the one hand, Congress not doing what you want does not mean Congress is broken.

The problem with strong executives and "accountable government" is, where is the stability? One could easily see a Republican president issuing all sorts of bold policies, such as repealing Social Security, then a Democrat comes in and issues an order reinstating it, plus single payer universal health care, which we have for some years until the next Republican comes in and repeals it all again.

If the people are polarized and do not agree, it seems that a better solution would be compromise. After all, that is what you do in a relationship, no?
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« Reply #202 on: November 21, 2014, 12:59:58 PM »

King fails to see that "inaction" by the legislative branch can sometimes (most often?) be a feature rather than a flaw. Is it impossible to envision a scenario where one man given unlimited lawmaking power for four years (but he would not be a dictator, because muh elections) could enact legislation that he dislikes. I am certain that he would be thrilled about George W. Bush making any law he so pleased for 8 years in spite of congressional opposition (although to be fair Bush did kind of set the precedent for this with his executive signing statements, but that should only be more reason to oppose the idea that the executive can effectively exercise a capricious ex post facto line-item veto.

I'm not against legislatures. I am against the United States Congress. You say "muh elections" but what about the United States Congress as it exists today is any different from the House of Lords our Founding Fathers did not want other than "muh elections"? What reason do you have to support the existence of the United States Congress in its current form other than "muh constitution"? It is a terrible body.

There are dozens of nationally non-elected, nationally non-endorsed Mr. Chairmans, Speaker, Whips, etc. running around DC exuding authority over this nation with no check against them by the people. It is the body of government completely out of control and it has been for quite some time. Extending far beyond this Presidency. If the Founders were alive today, they'd call a Constitutional Convention to massively reform, effectively eliminate both the House and Senate as they exist today.

I would have been thrilled for George W Bush to have real power in his 2nd term. His own Congress screwed him on this very issue and then distanced themselves from 2005 onward, then Democrats came in a fought him on foreign policy. We might have been in a better spot as a nation if he had taken more executive action. In business and in personal life matters, the ideology of the plan does not so much make the plan effective as it does the commitment and thoughtfulness of the plan.  Four years of real conservative or real liberal policy would be far more effective than four years of Rube Goldberg Machine public policy.

Everything wrong with government today was created in a bargain to appease some halfwit Congressman. Every earmark, every legal exception, every crap amendment.

Ask yourself this hypothetical, as a citizen, which America would be a stronger nation with a more accountable government: an America where Barack Obama, George W Bush, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Dwight Eisenhower, Franklin Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln governed visibly for four year terms without a Congress or an America where John Boehner, Nancy Pelosi, Newt Gingrich, Tip O'Neill, Henry Clay governed as long as their drawn districts kept them in power without a President?

The truth is the statesman that is the President has been America's real defense against corruption,  tyranny, and oligarchy in the Congress for most of our nation's history and not the other way around.
You make some very, very good points.  I feel like this should be its own thread.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #203 on: November 21, 2014, 01:28:12 PM »

Well, I don't know. On the one hand, Congress not doing what you want does not mean Congress is broken.

The problem with strong executives and "accountable government" is, where is the stability? One could easily see a Republican president issuing all sorts of bold policies, such as repealing Social Security, then a Democrat comes in and issues an order reinstating it, plus single payer universal health care, which we have for some years until the next Republican comes in and repeals it all again.

If the people are polarized and do not agree, it seems that a better solution would be compromise. After all, that is what you do in a relationship, no?

The President can repeal statutes.  What on earth are you talking about? 

Obama doesn't need to do what Congress wants.  Congress doesn't need to do what Obama wants.  Obama's executive action is just enforcing existing laws in a different way, within his discretion.  If Congress doesn't like this executive action, they can pass a law.  That's the main thing a legislature is supposed to do, remember?  The legislature passes laws, that's in the Constitution.  The part where they file frivolous lawsuits and go on Fox News to whine and moan is not.

Obama is doing what the executive does.  Congress instead just wants Obama to unilaterally give in to their whining and frivolous lawsuits.  Let's be honest, you don't want Obama to compromise, you want him to knuckle under. 
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Beet
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« Reply #204 on: November 21, 2014, 01:32:15 PM »
« Edited: November 21, 2014, 01:34:10 PM by Beet »

I was responding to King's "strong presidency" hypothetical.

If I wanted Obama to knuckle under, I would not have supported ACA. That is proof that the legislative process can work.
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King
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« Reply #205 on: November 21, 2014, 01:40:30 PM »
« Edited: November 21, 2014, 01:46:59 PM by King »

I was responding to King's "strong presidency" hypothetical.

If I wanted Obama to knuckle under, I would not have supported ACA. That is proof that the legislative process can work.

ACA is working because Obama is doing the necessary executive actions to implement it.

As for your bold Republican hypothesis, again the President is held to a high standard. No President would jeopardize his own re-election by announcing a repeal of SS to the American people. Meanwhile, Republican Congressmen can make such demands in a government shutdown without fear of losing re-election. No President would jeopardize his economy. The Presidential election is a far more accountable election than Congressional elections. The worst President we've ever had (Buchanan?) was a far more reasonable man than most members of the House and Senate today.

Again, the test for asking which branch of government is the cancerous one is which body acting unilaterally would result in the worst outcome: Mitt Romney or the 2010 elected Teabagger house? And for conservatives: Barack Obama or Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid as leaders of the free world?

Congress is awful. Period.
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King
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« Reply #206 on: November 21, 2014, 02:01:34 PM »

Congressional accomplishments 1776-present:
1. Prolonging slavery, destroying thousands of lives.
2. Rejecting Woodrow Wilson's WWI peace plan, causing World War II.
3. Prolonging our entrance into World War II, destroying thousands of lives.
4. Starting the Civil War
5. Bridge to Nowhere projects
6. McCarthy Hearings, Red Scare, Cold War propaganda
7. Segregation
8. Defense of Marriage Act
9. Debt ceiling crisis

Presidential accomplishments 1776-present:
1. Defeating the British
2. Ending slavery
3. Winning World War I
4. Winning World War II
5. Social Security
6. Medicare
7. Ending the Cold War

Name me one thing the Congress forced a US President to sign that was good for this country. Name me one thing a US President forced the Congress to pass that was bad.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #207 on: November 21, 2014, 02:20:05 PM »

Bloomberg weighs in.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-11-21/obamas-incoherent-immigration-speech?cmpid=yhoo
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King
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« Reply #208 on: November 21, 2014, 02:47:03 PM »

BloombergView isn't really Bloomberg.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #209 on: November 21, 2014, 02:48:55 PM »

BloombergView isn't really Bloomberg.

But it's not Breitbart either.  Smiley
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Likely Voter
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« Reply #210 on: November 21, 2014, 03:39:32 PM »
« Edited: November 21, 2014, 03:42:30 PM by Likely Voter »

If the GOP is really upset about this then pass a bill to deal with the undocumented. They can either find a path to legal status or appropriate funds (2012 study estimated to be $285B) to deport them all. Those are their two choices.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #211 on: November 21, 2014, 03:55:57 PM »

King has really knocked it out of the park in this thread. God damn.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #212 on: November 21, 2014, 04:00:15 PM »
« Edited: November 21, 2014, 05:24:11 PM by True Federalist »

Congressional accomplishments 1776-present:
1. Prolonging slavery, destroying thousands of lives.
2. Rejecting Woodrow Wilson's WWI peace plan, causing World War II.
3. Prolonging our entrance into World War II, destroying thousands of lives.
4. Starting the Civil War
5. Bridge to Nowhere projects
6. McCarthy Hearings, Red Scare, Cold War propaganda
7. Segregation
8. Defense of Marriage Act
9. Debt ceiling crisis

Odd juxtaposition there.  Wilson's policies during World War I pretty much doomed the world to a repeat.  The idea that American participation in the League of Nations would have prevented World War II is absolutely ludicrous.  Conversely, it was Wilson who segregated the Civil Service, leaving only the most menial of positions open to blacks, even in communities where having blacks in positions of responsibility would have been acceptable.

Presidential accomplishments 1776-present:
1. Defeating the British
2. Ending slavery
3. Winning World War I
4. Winning World War II
5. Social Security
6. Medicare
7. Ending the Cold War

Are you really that ignorant of history?

First off, Washington was not President during the Revolution, and Madison's ineptitude and cronyism during the War of 1812 could easily have led to the British reconquest of North America had they been interested in such a thing.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #213 on: November 21, 2014, 04:09:16 PM »

John "Its ok for the President to order a child's testicles crushed" Yoo complains about the executive order: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/393215/how-check-president-john-yoo-robert-delahunty
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Cory
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« Reply #214 on: November 21, 2014, 04:43:30 PM »

King has really knocked it out of the park in this thread. God damn.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #215 on: November 21, 2014, 05:25:52 PM »

King has really knocked it out of the park in this thread. God damn.
I hope you two are more knowledgeable about other sports.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #216 on: November 21, 2014, 07:18:20 PM »

Congressional accomplishments 1776-present:
1. Prolonging slavery, destroying thousands of lives.
2. Rejecting Woodrow Wilson's WWI peace plan, causing World War II.
3. Prolonging our entrance into World War II, destroying thousands of lives.
4. Starting the Civil War
5. Bridge to Nowhere projects
6. McCarthy Hearings, Red Scare, Cold War propaganda
7. Segregation
8. Defense of Marriage Act
9. Debt ceiling crisis

Odd juxtaposition there.  Wilson's policies during World War I pretty much doomed the world to a repeat.  The idea that American participation in the League of Nations would have prevented World War II is absolutely ludicrous.  Conversely, it was Wilson who segregated the Civil Service, leaving only the most menial of positions open to blacks, even in communities where having blacks in positions of responsibility would have been acceptable.

Presidential accomplishments 1776-present:
1. Defeating the British
2. Ending slavery
3. Winning World War I
4. Winning World War II
5. Social Security
6. Medicare
7. Ending the Cold War

Are you really that ignorant of history?

First off, Washington was not President during the Revolution, and Madison's ineptitude and cronyism during the War of 1812 could easily have led to the British reconquest of North America had they been interested in such a thing.

As for the second one on his list of Presidential Accomplishments, he obviously must have missed a certain great movie that came out two years ago by Steven Spielberg. It also buys into the false narrative that the Emancipation Proclamation ended Slavery when it was still legal in the border states and parts of the CSA afterwards, hence the events in the movie.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #217 on: November 21, 2014, 07:21:44 PM »

In fact the comparison is very apt, because the Emancipation Proclamation was a war time power and could very well have been nullfied by the Supreme Court or rescinded by a future President. Only Congressional action could provide the necessary permenance to deal with the issue.

Likewise with immigration, governing by executive order is exactly the wrong approach because it means that is subject to the arbitrary nature of the President's political whims and that very instability in policy will worsen the underlying problem on that subject.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #218 on: November 21, 2014, 07:22:20 PM »

King has really knocked it out of the park in this thread. God damn.

Actually he tripped up rather badly from a historical perspective.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #219 on: November 21, 2014, 07:28:28 PM »

Name me one thing the Congress forced a US President to sign that was good for this country. Name me one thing a US President forced the Congress to pass that was bad.

Oh I see your standard now. Typically though, The Presidents work with congress like with the Wars you mention, or worked with allies in the Congress like with 13th Amendment to get the job done. And as for the Wars, what degree of forcing was necessary? All but 1 in both instances voted for war. If there was ever a case of a President forcing a Congress to eat a war, it was in 2007 and 2008 with Iraq. In most all other cases, they were along for the ride. Unless there is an implication that Wilson/FDR had some kind of secret involvement in the Zimmerman Note/Pearl Harbor. There attempts to produce involvement didn't gain traction until a threat to the homeland was established.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #220 on: November 21, 2014, 07:34:55 PM »


Congress set the stage by failing to resolve the crisis in advance over years of it building up. However, it was the Supreme Court rulling, involving a President violating the seperation of powers in the process, that pushed the two sides beyond the point of no return and created the majority in the North ready to back a Lincoln. It was then the same Constitution violating President, who then sat and did nothing as the first seven states walked out of the union and let his Secretary of War transfer military resources to the South with no oversight so that it coudl be seized and used by the soon to be formed Confederacy. The Civil War's beginning is no example of Executive Competence against Congressional inaction, the exact opposite is true.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #221 on: November 21, 2014, 07:38:52 PM »


This is full of irony because prior to Truman, it was Congress always trying to force the hands of the PResident and Senate into action. While FDR ignored them and his own wife on the issue for the sake of his New Deal, so that he wouldn't have to force number 5 on your list of Congressional accomplishments through among others and they would said through instead.
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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #222 on: November 21, 2014, 07:40:10 PM »

Six consecutive posts seems a bit much.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #223 on: November 21, 2014, 07:40:46 PM »

If the GOP is really upset about this then pass a bill to deal with the undocumented. They can either find a path to legal status or appropriate funds (2012 study estimated to be $285B) to deport them all. Those are their two choices.

There is always more then two options.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #224 on: November 21, 2014, 07:53:15 PM »

Six consecutive posts seems a bit much.

I wanted to break the last three points out into their own discussions as they really deserve it.

Ironically I sympathize with King's overall point about the horrible nature of congress and ironically I would include this issue of immigration in my magic list of horrible things that Congress has done but it cannot be contrasted with the Executive because typically they led the charge or played along as Congress passed a flawed bill like in 1986.

I also wanted to acknowedge the last paragraph of King's post because I missed it initially, but it barely changes the points that I made because his standard seems to vary with each point and some of the things he listed were either examples where all three branches were terrible (Civil War) or merely an exmaple where the President led but Congress was hardly hostile to the attempt (New Deal and the Wars). My preference is to avoid creating those nasty little openings for various people on hear to put words in my mouth, but on the flip side I would prefer to avoid walls of text that no one reads and that I no longer have the time to create anymore.
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