The mess that is the Pacific (and its Constitution)
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  The mess that is the Pacific (and its Constitution)
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Author Topic: The mess that is the Pacific (and its Constitution)  (Read 2241 times)
Adam Griffin
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« on: November 16, 2014, 11:30:33 PM »

As I posted earlier, the entire Pacific Government has been absent for going on 11 days. The Governor himself did not log in to the forum at all for roughly 10 days, beginning shortly before this hiatus of all elected officials.

EXECUTIVE:

The problem with the current government and Constitution is not just this, but the fact that there is really no recourse for the citizens whatsoever. I misspoke in my original post; there is no recall measure in the Constitution to allow citizens to act on this:

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There is also no mention in Article 3 (Executive) of provisions that result in automatic removal from office of the Governor, meaning that he can in effect be absent for an infinite amount of time. There is a provision that states:

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LEGISLATIVE:

But the fact remains that all Councillors have been MIA from duty for 11 days now! And what about them? Are there provisions to see that inactive Councillors can be removed from office? As I already mentioned, there is no recall mechanism in the Pacific. The only way a Councillor can be removed is:

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Wait a minute! It would appear that "poor behavior" is defined here in the Constitution, and that "absences lasting longer than ten days" mean that "the seat will then be considered vacant". So one interpretation leads us to believe that we have no Pacific Council at the moment, and Councillors Potus2036 and Spamage have been removed from office automatically.

The other interpretation (for those who like to get crafty) is that they have not been removed from office yet, and that the first part of Article IV Section 3 may mean that the Council has the right to remove Councillors for aforementioned reasons, after which point their seats are considered vacant. In either case, deeply disturbing!

On top of that, Potus2036, Spamage, and Averroes Nix were elected to the Pacific Council in October. Nix was also elected to the Senate, so I don't think he ever took office in the Pacific Council. It appears that the Governor never appointed a third Councilor. Why wasn't a third Councilor ever appointed?

JUDICIAL:

And where's the Pacific Justice in all of this? Well, the Justice has the authority in the Constitution to open a voting booth if the Governor's office has been vacated:

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There is no other mention of the Pacific Justice having the authority to open a voting booth in lieu of an inactive Governor; only if the Governor's office is vacant. There is also no mention of the Pacific Justice having any authority whatsoever to open a voting booth for the Pacific Council, vacant or otherwise.

And on top of that, there is no Pacific Justice. Likely Senator-elect Bacon King was appointed AG several weeks ago and there has been no replacement. The Governor even acknowledged this as being a benefit while he was still active when passing a Right to Life bill:

Eheu, we no longer have a Justice to tell us whether or not we can actually do this, but I'm all for it notwithstanding.

Why wasn't the Pacific Justice replaced?



So, hinging upon the interpretation of Article IV Section 3, we have one of two scenarios in the Pacific right now:

1) The Governor is inactive and cannot be removed from office nor recalled by the citizens. He can only be removed by the Council, two out of three of whom have been removed from office for being absent longer than ten days (with the third never being appointed). The Pacific Justice has no authority to open a voting booth for the Council, and on top of that, there is no Pacific Justice.

2) The Governor is inactive and cannot be removed from office nor recalled by the citizens. He can only be removed by the Council, two out of three of whom are still Councilors but who are inactive and cannot be recalled by the citizens (and one vacancy that was never appointed). The Councilors can only be removed from office by the Council voting to expel each Councilor. The Pacific Justice has no authority to open a voting booth even if the Councilors were to expel themselves, and on top of that, there is no Pacific Justice.  




Am I missing something here, or are we going to have to make up "precedent" and basically break the Constitution to fix this if circumstances (aka elected officials) don't fix themselves?
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I Will Not Be Wrong
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 11:34:46 PM »

I am back in, and will do my duty to vote, share ideas, and endorse others. I must apologize for not voting in the big election last month.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 11:37:12 PM »

I am back in, and will do my duty to vote, share ideas, and endorse others. I must apologize for not voting in the big election last month.

Hmm, so actually I am a registered Federalist, and I have decided that I will stay that way.
I also promise to vote on every future bill.

It appears that Potus2036 and Spamage are the only two Councilors. I can't find a record of where you were appointed; Nix was elected as the third Councilor in October and there was no mention of you being appointed in Simfan's office.
Appointed under Cranberry.

When he was Governor? We've had elections since then.
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I Will Not Be Wrong
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2014, 11:46:31 PM »
« Edited: November 16, 2014, 11:50:59 PM by Moderate Hero »

I have decided to go back to the Mideast.
I hope my votes after I was councilor were not counted.
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I Will Not Be Wrong
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 12:02:59 AM »

OK, it's all good, I haven't voted on a bill since my tenure, there was a mix up about this.  Sorry if I confused anyone.
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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 12:04:05 AM »

Leave the Pacific alone.
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Spamage
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 12:58:11 AM »
« Edited: November 17, 2014, 01:03:24 AM by Spamage »

I hate not having recalls and I think it was one of the biggest mistakes in the new Constitution.

Is Keaton a Councillor still? I was under the impression he was no longer serving after being appointed to the Cabinet and I was the sole Councillor (meaning zero could get done with two empty seats).

EDIT: I see now he has not been confirmed yet.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 01:12:59 AM »

Everyone's active in the Papal Patch, and we're just a hop, skip, and boat ride away from y'all.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 01:24:33 AM »

Everyone's active in the Papal Patch, and we're just a hop, skip, and boat ride away from y'all.

visit me in oceania Sad
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Cranberry
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 12:29:07 PM »

I guess we all Pacificians have to say a big thank you to Nix, otherwise this whole thing could have ended quite messy.
Also, I apologise that I haven't noticed this before, but I wasn't particularly active the last time...
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Oakvale
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 12:56:33 PM »

As the person mostly responsible for authoring this thing I'll try to provide some framer's intent (Tyrion contributed a great deal too but seems to be still be banned). I've already discussed most of this with Griffin privately but it's worth clearing the air a little in public.

1. Yes, the Pacific is specifically prohibited from legislating for recall elections. In the context of the time post-Rimjob it's worth remembering that we were literally holding tedious recall elections weekly and they were severely disrupting the functioning of the government. Granted in an extraordinary situation like this I can see the usefulness.

2. Impeachment votes need a majority (so, 2 Councillors) to vote in the affirmative in order to proceed to a public vote. Assuming Spamage and Nix are in office that would be enough.

3. Art. II §4 clearly does not indicate that Councillors automatically have their 'seats considered vacant' after an absence. Our intention in this clause was to allow Councillors to be expelled for 'poor behaviour', but not to allow Councillors to be expelled for ideological or political reasons, hence the suggested guidelines for a definition of 'poor behaviour'.

Sitting Councillors retain their seats until resignation, loss of re-election, retirement or expulsion by vote of the Council.

4. The lack of a Justice is troubling and deeply problematic. The Pacific Constitution was specifically written to allow for some leeway in judicial interpretation, something becomes moot without a Justice. It's also worth noting that the so-called Right To Life Act specifically contradicts the Women's Rights Amendment to the Pacific Constitution, authored and enacted by me and the rest of the Council this time last year.

Your second interpretation is the more accurate.

At this point the best thing to do is for Cllrs. Spamage and Averroes to impeach Simfan. Whoever is Speaker (Spamage?) will then become Acting Governor, and appoint a Pacific Justice. That Justice (stay with me!) will then open a voting booth for a proper gubernatorial election.

The Council problems can be then easily dealt with.
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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 01:34:44 PM »

Is Simfan OK?
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Anti Democrat Democrat Club
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2014, 01:43:59 PM »

I have full faith in Spamage and Nix to resolve the Pacific's situation and would like to remind the people of Atlasia that the Sawx administration is still staunchly opposed to any form of consolidation that alters the Northeast.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2014, 01:45:12 PM »

This is an unfortunate situation.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2014, 01:54:08 PM »

Under the leadership of GAWorth, I think a melded Pacific-Midwest could work this time.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 02:08:17 PM »

Under the leadership of GAWorth, I think a melded Pacific-Midwest could work this time.

Yes, I hope so. My only condition has ever been that the new region retain the name The Pacific (where the overwhelming majority of our 'real life' citizens would live, and its unique non-directional character) and our state names. I'd be willing to accept the Midwest's Governor, Senator, local government and to keep their unique culture intact, too.
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windjammer
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2014, 02:10:41 PM »

The Midwest and the Pacific already rejected the merge for the record.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2014, 02:30:25 PM »

The Midwest and the Pacific already rejected the merge for the record.

Different circumstances. I voted against the merger last time but probably would vote in favour this time provided my condition were to be met.

e: I supposed it would be simpler if the 'mega-region' still had two Senate seats?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2014, 02:36:34 PM »

The loss of the Pacific name would be tragic.

e: I supposed it would be simpler if the 'mega-region' still had two Senate seats?

Not under the current constitution, no (Article I, Section 4, Clause 1). Though as said hallowed document prescribes ten Senators that would leave it in conflict with itself, so something would have to be sorted out immediately...
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windjammer
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2014, 02:42:37 PM »

The Midwest and the Pacific already rejected the merge for the record.

Different circumstances. I voted against the merger last time but probably would vote in favour this time provided my condition were to be met.

e: I supposed it would be simpler if the 'mega-region' still had two Senate seats?
A kind of "confederation" but not a merge?

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2014, 02:47:44 PM »

I don't see region merging as the answer anyway; regional activity has not always been as closely correlated with size as is often assumed. A Pacific-MidWest super region could just as easily flip out into inactivity as the current separate regions (both have had problems in the past, note). In real life the 'solution' to basket case regional or local governments is often to merge them, but that's because they run actual services; that is obviously (thank God) not a concern here.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2014, 02:49:25 PM »

The Midwest and the Pacific already rejected the merge for the record.

Different circumstances. I voted against the merger last time but probably would vote in favour this time provided my condition were to be met.

e: I supposed it would be simpler if the 'mega-region' still had two Senate seats?
A kind of "confederation" but not a merge?



I think two regions with a consolidated regional government would work (not sure if it would require approval of the Senate)
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Oakvale
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2014, 02:51:37 PM »

Bacon King: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=186155.0
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windjammer
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2014, 02:54:30 PM »

The Midwest and the Pacific already rejected the merge for the record.

Different circumstances. I voted against the merger last time but probably would vote in favour this time provided my condition were to be met.

e: I supposed it would be simpler if the 'mega-region' still had two Senate seats?
A kind of "confederation" but not a merge?



I think two regions with a consolidated regional government would work (not sure if it would require approval of the Senate)

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Well: According to the constitution:
A merge is impossible (or would need to change the constitution)
But a confederation that doesn't affect Atlasia= so they still have their 2 seats, is possible with the consent of the senate.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2014, 02:58:51 PM »
« Edited: November 17, 2014, 03:00:44 PM by oakvale »

Here's what a merger would look like if it were to happen today under my proposal. It would probably make sense to phase out tenth Senate seat at some point but that would take some time. The regions would remain as constitutional units, federally speaking, but in practice would have the same regional government.

Crudely-drawn infographic:

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