I went to church in a suburb today
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BRTD
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2016, 09:06:53 AM »

There are also "synagogues" like this, at least in the US. Wouldn't enter them if I got payed big money for it, and that's quite the Jewish dilemma Smiley

No, there's actually quite a difference. Said synagogues tend to be very loose in terms of theology too and are more just social clubs for ethnic Jews. But this church and the rest of the emergent church movement like it are pretty orthodox (small "o") theologically and it's really NOT possible for anyone going to be simply "culturally emergent", if you're an adult and you go to an emergent church, you have to be a convert. (Well I suppose it's possible if you're in your very early twenties and your parents were very early adopters of it, but that's a miniscule number of people.) And thus there is not any real connection to ethnic background in numbers either. (well except for being almost all white people) No one goes to an emergent church just because they are "culturally" Christian, it's because they believe in Jesus Christ.
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Torie
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2016, 09:19:10 AM »

It's St. Louis Park.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2016, 10:18:08 AM »
« Edited: February 01, 2016, 10:27:13 AM by DavidB. »

No, there's actually quite a difference. Said synagogues tend to be very loose in terms of theology too and are more just social clubs for ethnic Jews. But this church and the rest of the emergent church movement like it are pretty orthodox (small "o") theologically and it's really NOT possible for anyone going to be simply "culturally emergent", if you're an adult and you go to an emergent church, you have to be a convert. (Well I suppose it's possible if you're in your very early twenties and your parents were very early adopters of it, but that's a miniscule number of people.) And thus there is not any real connection to ethnic background in numbers either. (well except for being almost all white people) No one goes to an emergent church just because they are "culturally" Christian, it's because they believe in Jesus Christ.
I'm actually not sure. While I would agree that many Jews who go to such "temples" do not necessarily believe in the G-d of mainstream orthodox Judaism, I don't think Thomas from NJ would agree with the St. Louis Park church's characterization of the Christian God either. Some Reform temples are, indeed, more ethnic "social clubs" than actual congregations, but in many Reform temples (particularly in the most SJW-like ones), people do believe that it is upon the Jews to be a light to the world and to contribute to repairing the world ("tikkun olam"), and here's where the SJW angle becomes relevant. This is, by the way, theological garbage, as is explained here, but people still perceive Judaism that way and my opinion of this phenomenon is therefore not really relevant, just as Thomas from NJ's opinion of SJW churches' theology doesn't change the fact that there are Christians who do believe in Jesus as an "all liberal, all the time" SJW.

Also don't forget "faith" is much less of a necessity to function in a Jewish congregation than in a Christian congregation to begin with. For instance, I have no idea if the hazzan of my (orthodox) shul believes in G-d (though probably he does), and I'm even less sure about my fellow congregants. It does not really matter.

Your post about the sermon you attended, by the way, immediately reminded me of this.
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RFayette
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2016, 12:42:36 PM »
« Edited: February 01, 2016, 12:45:27 PM by MW Representative RFayette »

No, there's actually quite a difference. Said synagogues tend to be very loose in terms of theology too and are more just social clubs for ethnic Jews. But this church and the rest of the emergent church movement like it are pretty orthodox (small "o") theologically and it's really NOT possible for anyone going to be simply "culturally emergent", if you're an adult and you go to an emergent church, you have to be a convert. (Well I suppose it's possible if you're in your very early twenties and your parents were very early adopters of it, but that's a miniscule number of people.) And thus there is not any real connection to ethnic background in numbers either. (well except for being almost all white people) No one goes to an emergent church just because they are "culturally" Christian, it's because they believe in Jesus Christ.
I'm actually not sure. While I would agree that many Jews who go to such "temples" do not necessarily believe in the G-d of mainstream orthodox Judaism, I don't think Thomas from NJ would agree with the St. Louis Park church's characterization of the Christian God either. Some Reform temples are, indeed, more ethnic "social clubs" than actual congregations, but in many Reform temples (particularly in the most SJW-like ones), people do believe that it is upon the Jews to be a light to the world and to contribute to repairing the world ("tikkun olam"), and here's where the SJW angle becomes relevant. This is, by the way, theological garbage, as is explained here, but people still perceive Judaism that way and my opinion of this phenomenon is therefore not really relevant, just as Thomas from NJ's opinion of SJW churches' theology doesn't change the fact that there are Christians who do believe in Jesus as an "all liberal, all the time" SJW.

Also don't forget "faith" is much less of a necessity to function in a Jewish congregation than in a Christian congregation to begin with. For instance, I have no idea if the hazzan of my (orthodox) shul believes in G-d (though probably he does), and I'm even less sure about my fellow congregants. It does not really matter.

Your post about the sermon you attended, by the way, immediately reminded me of this.

This wouldn't surprise me with a Reformed Jewish temple, but I'm a little surprised that it is the case for an Orthodox Jewish synagogue.  I would tend to think that the myriad of requirements (like eating kosher and observing the sabbath) for being an observant Orthodox Jew would discourage people with little faith from staying in the fold - is that due to the social benefits/cohesion of being in that group?

Also, I thought your statement about tikkun olam was interesting - that seems to explain the social justice tendencies of many Jews, especially more secular ones like Bernie Sanders.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2016, 01:57:47 PM »

This wouldn't surprise me with a Reformed Jewish temple, but I'm a little surprised that it is the case for an Orthodox Jewish synagogue.  I would tend to think that the myriad of requirements (like eating kosher and observing the sabbath) for being an observant Orthodox Jew would discourage people with little faith from staying in the fold - is that due to the social benefits/cohesion of being in that group?

Also, I thought your statement about tikkun olam was interesting - that seems to explain the social justice tendencies of many Jews, especially more secular ones like Bernie Sanders.
I have to add that only a minority of the people who to go my orthodox shul do actually keep all the commandments, including shabbat and kashrut. Most of them are like me: we sin, but we still want "the real thing" and don't try to find any excuses for it. Obviously one would, as you rightly assumed, say it is more likely for people who are shomer mitzvot (=keep all the commandments) to believe in G-d, and I do think even most of the less observant ones believe in Him. My point was mainly that it isn't that much of a thing, in the sense that most people probably believe in G-d (which is why I think my hazzan believes in G-d, even if I'm not sure), but there's no way to know if you don't talk about it with them -- whereas there is no reason for people to go to church all the time (bar social pressure and the like) if they don't believe.

There's of course also a lot of Jewish progressives that don't connect their progressivism to their Judaism, so I'd be careful to say that people like Sanders really believe in the notion of tikkun olam in a religious sense. They might have "secular" reasons to be progressives as Jews, not related to belief ("we were once poor and discriminated"). Many Jews in the US have historically always been socialists, of course, and some of them were secular when they immigrated already.
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RFayette
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2016, 02:49:50 PM »

Interesting.....I guess my question is, what is the additional "draw" that would get people to go to a Jewish service regardless of belief that does not exist in Christianity?  Is it shared lineage/experience/culture?
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DavidB.
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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2016, 03:20:37 PM »

Interesting.....I guess my question is, what is the additional "draw" that would get people to go to a Jewish service regardless of belief that does not exist in Christianity?  Is it shared lineage/experience/culture?
Yes. The idea of standing within a tradition that goes back for centuries and being responsible for continuing this tradition. Jews in Europe also get confronted with being Jewish often (more so than in the US, I'd wager) and it seems there are fewer non-religious Jewish events, so people go to synagogue to stay in touch with their roots -- although non-religious reasons are much more important for Jews who go to Reform shuls (which, in the Netherlands, are much more conservative than most Reform shuls in the US) than to Orthodox shuls.

But I'll reiterate that most people do believe, especially in Orthodox shuls, and this is a main reason for people going to shul. It's just that believing in itself is less of a necessity for functioning or for finding your place within a Jewish congregation, and that even goes for Orthodox shuls.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2016, 04:03:57 PM »

TWO trips to the burbs? At this pace BRTD will be wearing a sweater vest and a bowtie by 2016.

Send the man his 2016 Republican primary ballot!  

This is kind of ironic in hindsight. The two posters who posted before this post will be voting in the Republican primary this year, and I will not be.

That said, I had a frightening realization today: Most people at church are probably voting for Sanders. AKA they're not voting for my candidate, and I'm associating with people who are voting differently from me in some way. Which is pretty bizarre.

*gasp* The horror!
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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2016, 05:17:11 PM »

TWO trips to the burbs? At this pace BRTD will be wearing a sweater vest and a bowtie by 2016.

Send the man his 2016 Republican primary ballot!  

This is kind of ironic in hindsight. The two posters who posted before this post will be voting in the Republican primary this year, and I will not be.

That said, I had a frightening realization today: Most people at church are probably voting for Sanders. AKA they're not voting for my candidate, and I'm associating with people who are voting differently from me in some way. Which is pretty bizarre.

*gasp* The horror!
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« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2016, 07:10:14 PM »

TWO trips to the burbs? At this pace BRTD will be wearing a sweater vest and a bowtie by 2016.

Send the man his 2016 Republican primary ballot!  

This is kind of ironic in hindsight. The two posters who posted before this post will be voting in the Republican primary this year, and I will not be.

That said, I had a frightening realization today: Most people at church are probably voting for Sanders. AKA they're not voting for my candidate, and I'm associating with people who are voting differently from me in some way. Which is pretty bizarre.

*gasp* The horror!

Sending my prayers to BRTD
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2016, 10:55:12 PM »

TWO trips to the burbs? At this pace BRTD will be wearing a sweater vest and a bowtie by 2016.

Send the man his 2016 Republican primary ballot!  

This is kind of ironic in hindsight. The two posters who posted before this post will be voting in the Republican primary this year, and I will not be.

That said, I had a frightening realization today: Most people at church are probably voting for Sanders. AKA they're not voting for my candidate, and I'm associating with people who are voting differently from me in some way. Which is pretty bizarre.

*gasp* The horror!

Sending my prayers to BRTD

He'll never be the same after meeting a non-echo chamber!

RIP.
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BRTD
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2016, 12:56:23 AM »

No, there's actually quite a difference. Said synagogues tend to be very loose in terms of theology too and are more just social clubs for ethnic Jews. But this church and the rest of the emergent church movement like it are pretty orthodox (small "o") theologically and it's really NOT possible for anyone going to be simply "culturally emergent", if you're an adult and you go to an emergent church, you have to be a convert. (Well I suppose it's possible if you're in your very early twenties and your parents were very early adopters of it, but that's a miniscule number of people.) And thus there is not any real connection to ethnic background in numbers either. (well except for being almost all white people) No one goes to an emergent church just because they are "culturally" Christian, it's because they believe in Jesus Christ.
I'm actually not sure. While I would agree that many Jews who go to such "temples" do not necessarily believe in the G-d of mainstream orthodox Judaism, I don't think Thomas from NJ would agree with the St. Louis Park church's characterization of the Christian God either. Some Reform temples are, indeed, more ethnic "social clubs" than actual congregations, but in many Reform temples (particularly in the most SJW-like ones), people do believe that it is upon the Jews to be a light to the world and to contribute to repairing the world ("tikkun olam"), and here's where the SJW angle becomes relevant. This is, by the way, theological garbage, as is explained here, but people still perceive Judaism that way and my opinion of this phenomenon is therefore not really relevant, just as Thomas from NJ's opinion of SJW churches' theology doesn't change the fact that there are Christians who do believe in Jesus as an "all liberal, all the time" SJW.

Also don't forget "faith" is much less of a necessity to function in a Jewish congregation than in a Christian congregation to begin with. For instance, I have no idea if the hazzan of my (orthodox) shul believes in G-d (though probably he does), and I'm even less sure about my fellow congregants. It does not really matter.

Your post about the sermon you attended, by the way, immediately reminded me of this.

Well of course Thomas from NJ wouldn't agree with it, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the tendency of some liberal mainline churches to move away from or at least downplay basic Christian theological concepts, like the ones that say "Well maybe the Resurrection is just metaphorical." I remember a guy explaining to me that at a United Church of Christ confirmation, the Apostle's Creed is recited, but the Confirmation sponsors are not only told it's OK but actually encouraged to sit down during any part of that they don't believe in, which strikes me as very silly. I can understand not saying it, but geez no need to make a scene. Basically some of them are just one step away from Unitarianism, and are basically social clubs in a way. Now that is true of the hipster churches, who tend to be very solid on theological stuff and uncompromising, even if they hold to liberal politics. So quite a bit different from Reform Jews too.

But here's my main point: As stated, there is no such thing as people who are ethnically or "culturally" emergent. No one goes to an emergent church because it's some tradition that's existed in their family for generations because it's too young of a movement for that to be possible. So if someone's going to an emergent church, they obviously believe in God. Plus people doing all that hand raising and shaking and swaying in worship stuff is something that someone wouldn't do if it was only part of their heritage to them.

As far as your second point goes...yeah that kind of proves mine. No one's going to play in an emergent church band if they don't believe in it. It can't be just a cultural thing to them, because it's something YOU have to choose. Imagine a shul that consisted exclusively of converts to Judaism...OK it's not a perfect analogy since the vast majority of people in the emergent church were raised Christian even if a different type, but I think the point is clear.

And the last sentence makes a lot of sense, because hipster Christians tend to love Upworthy.

Actually this sums it perfectly:

Yes. The idea of standing within a tradition that goes back for centuries and being responsible for continuing this tradition. Jews in Europe also get confronted with being Jewish often (more so than in the US, I'd wager) and it seems there are fewer non-religious Jewish events, so people go to synagogue to stay in touch with their roots -- although non-religious reasons are much more important for Jews who go to Reform shuls (which, in the Netherlands, are much more conservative than most Reform shuls in the US) than to Orthodox shuls.

Yeah see, it makes no sense for someone to go to an emergent church to "continue tradition" or "stay in touch with their roots". So it's liberal SJW legitimate Christians. Not liberal SJWs from a Christian background.
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BRTD
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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2018, 01:17:53 AM »

TWO trips to the burbs? At this pace BRTD will be wearing a sweater vest and a bowtie by 2016.

Send the man his 2016 Republican primary ballot!  

This is kind of ironic in hindsight. The two posters who posted before this post will be voting in the Republican primary this year, and I will not be.

That said, I had a frightening realization today: Most people at church are probably voting for Sanders. AKA they're not voting for my candidate, and I'm associating with people who are voting differently from me in some way. Which is pretty bizarre.

Amazing in hindsight.

Just as this church has opened the hearts of many to Jesus Christ, this church opened my heart to another Jewish socialist.
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omegascarlet
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« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2018, 11:37:10 AM »

TWO trips to the burbs? At this pace BRTD will be wearing a sweater vest and a bowtie by 2016.

Send the man his 2016 Republican primary ballot!  

This is kind of ironic in hindsight. The two posters who posted before this post will be voting in the Republican primary this year, and I will not be.

That said, I had a frightening realization today: Most people at church are probably voting for Sanders. AKA they're not voting for my candidate, and I'm associating with people who are voting differently from me in some way. Which is pretty bizarre.

Amazing in hindsight.

Just as this church has opened the hearts of many to Jesus Christ, this church opened my heart to another Jewish socialist.
Wait, you were a Clintonite?
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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2018, 11:43:45 AM »

I supported her initially but I never hated Sanders and honestly would've supported him from the beginning if I was voting on issues.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2018, 04:50:20 PM »

So I went there again today. I have to say I'm quite happy that I did because despite being technically in a suburb this service was TOTAL SJW to the max. The sermon series for Advent is about reconciliation, and the speaker (who was actually the band leader) opted to talk about reconciliation in race, and talked about Michael Brown and the protests, brought up the CIA memos about torture and how people might try to justify such violence because of violence against us in 9/11 and at one point said "There are five things about me that give me great privilege: One is that I'm male, two is that I'm white, three is that I'm straight, fourth is that I'm American and fifth is that I'm Christian" and that most of those probably applied to most of us in the all white room. Remember when I brought up church sermons that resemble Upworthy videos? This was like PURE Upworthy and if I recorded it it could probably easily end up on there. "What This Worship Band Leader Has To Say May Be Hard To Hear For Those With Privilege, And That's Why You Need To"

Dammit if only Bushie would go to a place like this. Alas they probably don't exist in Oklahoma. Sad

Also in an odd mix, I bet all of DC Al Fine, Simfan and Nathan would be utterly horrified.

Wow! He recognized his privilege!!!

It might be more meaningful to have a racially integrated Church than to have white people discuss racial issues.

I disagree that most white Americans are privileged. Just because minorities are mistreated doesn’t mean that all white people have a white privilege card to play. Similarly, I don’t think straight people get special advantages. I think gay people get some disadvantages in some areas, not that straight couples are treated better than they should be.
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BRTD
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« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2018, 05:16:34 PM »

Its kind of hard for a church to be racially integrated when it's geared toward SWPL liberals and has basically zero connection to black church traditions.

We do have some Hispanics and Asians though.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2018, 05:51:29 PM »

As an Atheist with Socialist inclinations, I go to Church every day, especially Monday through Friday, and occasionally when I work on a Saturday....

The Church that I attend is not in a suburb, but rather in a Manufacturing region of Downstate Oregon, with an extremely wide array of individuals that come from various backgrounds in terms of race, ethnicity, religion, country of origin, sexual orientation, gender, etc....

I went to Church Yesterday in the Factory in the company of my fellow workers....
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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2018, 08:56:26 PM »

So I went there again today. I have to say I'm quite happy that I did because despite being technically in a suburb this service was TOTAL SJW to the max. The sermon series for Advent is about reconciliation, and the speaker (who was actually the band leader) opted to talk about reconciliation in race, and talked about Michael Brown and the protests, brought up the CIA memos about torture and how people might try to justify such violence because of violence against us in 9/11 and at one point said "There are five things about me that give me great privilege: One is that I'm male, two is that I'm white, three is that I'm straight, fourth is that I'm American and fifth is that I'm Christian" and that most of those probably applied to most of us in the all white room. Remember when I brought up church sermons that resemble Upworthy videos? This was like PURE Upworthy and if I recorded it it could probably easily end up on there. "What This Worship Band Leader Has To Say May Be Hard To Hear For Those With Privilege, And That's Why You Need To"

Dammit if only Bushie would go to a place like this. Alas they probably don't exist in Oklahoma. Sad

Also in an odd mix, I bet all of DC Al Fine, Simfan and Nathan would be utterly horrified.

Wow! He recognized his privilege!!!

It might be more meaningful to have a racially integrated Church than to have white people discuss racial issues.

I disagree that most white Americans are privileged. Just because minorities are mistreated doesn’t mean that all white people have a white privilege card to play. Similarly, I don’t think straight people get special advantages. I think gay people get some disadvantages in some areas, not that straight couples are treated better than they should be.

BTW, we've had had black people discuss racial issues before, by inviting guest preachers.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2018, 04:31:12 AM »

I feel as if BRTD has become much more conservative over the last couple of years.
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« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2018, 08:12:53 AM »

I feel as if BRTD has become much more conservative over the last couple of years.


Product of age and not understanding Kids These Days.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2018, 09:00:47 AM »

Relevant:

https://www.theonion.com/that-trip-to-canada-really-broadened-my-horizons-1819583907
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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2018, 12:55:41 AM »

This church's current precinct is pretty awesome:
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But the old one in the heavily Jewish suburb was better:

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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2023, 01:29:16 AM »

Damn, RIP. Sad
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