Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night)

[Silent Hunter]

Name them; because the vast majority of European forces do.

Well, they don't in ours do they? Only specialised firearms units have guns.

The PSNI carry them on a routine basis (and have for years), Garda detectives do and so do most of the forces of mainland Europe.

[Silent Hunter]

That's why in many countries, the police don't carry firearms. Alas, in the U.S. with our gun worshipping culture this is impossible.

Name them; because the vast majority of European forces do.

Off the top of my head, England, Japan and China. In China it's starting to change in some areas because of terrorist attacks, not because the police couldn't handle ordinary crime.

I don't think those in the UAE do either.

[Silent Hunter]

The riot was so predictable, especially with the prosecutor making such a big song and dance during his presentation. He must have known what he would provoke by his words. Blood. On. Hands

I'm sorry, is he Lord Voldemort? Does he have the magical power to make people of free will riot?

[Lief 🗽]

Police in Europe may still have guns but they almost never use them.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

a.) need to genuinely be in grave danger
b.) have no other milder method of achieving the same result (making the suspect unable to harm him)

Not in the United Kingdom, that's for sure; this is reminding me a lot of the Mark Duggan case.

An exceptional (awful) case* that would have been headline news even had it not (via the rightly famed incompetence of the Met) led to riots across first the capital and then the country. I'm not sure how bringing it up really excuses or normalises anything, particularly as the inquest into Duggan's death was also a bit of a joke, what with the contradictory findings of the jury (Duggan was, it seems, quite a loss to our Olympics discus team).

*Whereas in the U.S.A. the police kill hundreds of people every year. That North American society is observably more dangerous than Western/Northern European society can really only explain part of that.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Name them; because the vast majority of European forces do.

Well, they don't in ours do they? Only specialised firearms units have guns.

They are steadily increasing in London due to terrorism risks I don't know how long the Peelite instinct of an unarmed police force can last against political pressure.

[justfollowingtheelections]

New Zealand police doesn't carry guns either.

[Franzl]

Police in Europe may still have guns but they almost never use them.

Germany, with about one-fourth the American population (from 2011):

Statistics compiled by the German Police University show that German police officers fired a total of 49 warning shots and 36 shots aimed at individuals while pursuing suspects last year. From those incidents, 15 people were injured, and six were killed.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Name them; because the vast majority of European forces do.

Well, they don't in ours do they? Only specialised firearms units have guns.

The PSNI carry them on a routine basis (and have for years), Garda detectives do and so do most of the forces of mainland Europe.

The PSNI carry guns because Northern Ireland has a bit of a problem with paramilitary activity.

[All Along The Watchtower]

*Whereas in the U.S.A. the police kill hundreds of people every year. That North American society is observably more dangerous than Western/Northern European society can really only explain part of that.

Where do police officers in the US come from, if not American society?

[pbrower2a]

Well done, Anvi. Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson could have easily been a scapegoat for a situation that he did not bring about upon himself. Contradictory testimony would have mandated an acquittal had he been brought to trial. He would have become a poster boy for police brutality to be sacrificed to left-leaning interests while allowing the Ferguson police force to operate pathologically.

Let's get this straight -- however tragic the result, Michael Brown got himself killed by violently resisting arrest. The handful of cigars that he stole would have been good at most for a misdemeanor conviction. Resisting arrest was a bigger crime, a felony in most jurisdictions. Once resisting arrest turns violent, all bets are off for the one who resists arrest. Darren Wilson did not have a taser at the time -- a mistake.  

If I were a cop and I started to be beaten by a crook, I too would resort to my gun to solve the situation. The situation forces a response in which tragedy is highly likely.

What's necessary? That the Ferguson police department change its ways. It needs new training. Community policing has been tried in Dallas -- and it works. The cops set up storefronts, get to know the people in their precincts, and get to know who the honest citizens are and who the troublemakers are. That makes a police force more efficient in dealing with such problems as drug trafficking (the cornerstone of much crime) and in dealing with petty crime before it escalates into major crime. Police can direct people to social-service agencies when such have more appropriate resources, as for dealing with poverty and mental illness.

The best tribute to the loved ones of Michael Brown (if not him) is major reform of the local police force so that it can better deal with crime, whether through prevention or through arrests.      

[Cory]

Are you suggesting that American police officers are not adequately trained?

No amount of training can handwave 200 million years of human evolution.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

They are steadily increasing in London due to terrorism risks I don't know how long the Peelite instinct of an unarmed police force can last against political pressure.

They'll try for water cannon in a big way before trying that, I suspect. Which would still be a negative development.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

They are steadily increasing in London due to terrorism risks I don't know how long the Peelite instinct of an unarmed police force can last against political pressure.

They'll try for water cannon in a big way before trying that, I suspect. Which would still be a negative development.

Already got one. BoJo has promised to stand in front of it, but I doubt even that will happen :/

I think the police themselves keep voting down attempts to arm them.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Already got one.

Thought that was still at the christmas wish list stage; must have missed that

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For understandable and logical reasons.

[politicus]

That's why in many countries, the police don't carry firearms. Alas, in the U.S. with our gun worshipping culture this is impossible.

Name them; because the vast majority of European forces do.

In addition to the ones mentioned: Japan, Norway and Iceland and some island states in the pacific, but yes it is rare.

[pbrower2a]

Violence is an absolutely justified form of political action if you are first attacked and you have absolutely no other recourse. The people of Ferguson are never going to get justice through their racist courts and from their racist cops. They realize that and have acted accordingly.

No recourse? Turnout was barely 10% in Ferguson's last mayoral election, and only about 6% among black voters. You don't expect that to change next April?

Elections have consequences -- and Ferguson is in need of change that fits the realities of the population.  

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Are you suggesting that American police officers are not adequately trained?

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There were, what, six bullets in Brown's body? I'm no firearms expert, but it occurs to me that maybe you're confusing reality with action films again?

It's not a question of training, it's a natural human instinct.

I'll give you an example. Let's say a woman who owned a firearm had an armed robber breaking in her house. She shot him. She's crying. The police ask her how many times did you fire the gun? She might sincerely say, "four times", but when police check the gun, she might have fired nine times. It's a natural human survival response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-n5BMR_-wI

That video is of what was determined to be a justified police shooting of Ernesto Duenez Jr. in 2011. He was wanted in connection with an incident of domestic-violence reported earlier the same day and officers has been stalking out the house for some hours. He was charging at an officer with a knife. He was known in the neighborhood and a warrant was out for him.

Note that around the 5 min mark, the officer is asked, "How many shots did you fire?" The officer responds, "Somewhere in the neighborhood of six" when he had, as you can see on the tape, had actually fired 13 shots.

THAT is what I am talking about.

Sounds like a lack of training, Michael.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Already got one.

Thought that was still at the christmas wish list stage; must have missed that

From what I know, Johnson decided to quickly jump into a bidding war that nobody else even entered. In his haste, he pre-empted Theresa May authorising their use on British soil; so we are now are essentially stuck with three water cannons we can't even use.

[afleitch]

Naso, go buy a dozen bathtubs at a discount supplier and then fill them full of all the things you don't know.

[King]

Michael Brown sounds like a supervillain. Truly a scary individual. Able to jam a gun with his hand and still violently attacking with multiple bullets in him. Are we sure he did not rise from the grave since the incident and is still at large?

I wonder how he managed to get so physically powerful considering he played no sports and was obese.

[King]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuOEJKiKELA

THIS happened within 30 miles of where I live last year. Man pulled over for a traffic violation, yanks out an AK-47 and shoots at officers. The officers returned fire until the suspect's body was moribund.

I think you guys are the ones thinking it's like the movies. One shot, saying, "Hey buddy! Put your hands up!" That isn't real life. Real life trains those in these situations to eliminate the threat. If that means making sure the suspect is down, then that's what it is.

It doesn't matter if the suspect had a knife, or a hand grenade or was going for a gun. If just cause is found, the suspect can be killed using deadly force. Whether that's one bullet to the head or seventeen to the chest, it doesn't matter.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/blue-line-service-resumes-after-gunfire-on-loop-platform/343393/

This man in Chicago was using a stolen assault rifle and shooting at a passing subway train... underground... in the dark.

The police officer who responded managed to stop him without killing him or firing a single shot of their own.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Are you suggesting that American police officers are not adequately trained?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There were, what, six bullets in Brown's body? I'm no firearms expert, but it occurs to me that maybe you're confusing reality with action films again?

It's not a question of training, it's a natural human instinct.

I'll give you an example. Let's say a woman who owned a firearm had an armed robber breaking in her house. She shot him. She's crying. The police ask her how many times did you fire the gun? She might sincerely say, "four times", but when police check the gun, she might have fired nine times. It's a natural human survival response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-n5BMR_-wI

That video is of what was determined to be a justified police shooting of Ernesto Duenez Jr. in 2011. He was wanted in connection with an incident of domestic-violence reported earlier the same day and officers has been stalking out the house for some hours. He was charging at an officer with a knife. He was known in the neighborhood and a warrant was out for him.

Note that around the 5 min mark, the officer is asked, "How many shots did you fire?" The officer responds, "Somewhere in the neighborhood of six" when he had, as you can see on the tape, had actually fired 13 shots.

THAT is what I am talking about.

Sounds like a lack of training, Michael.

Not at all, Grumps. What do you think they say when training officers? "Make sure to count how many shots you fire" or "Make sure the suspect is down"?

I want the guy carrying one to have complete control of it, and himself, yes, Mike.  I don't think that's asking a Herculean amount.....

[King]

There's a big difference between a firefight with a guy carrying an AK47 and threatening suspect slowly walking at your vehicle.

[Lief 🗽]

Yes, Naso, that's a good example of cops acting somewhat responsibly. This Wilson fellow, who had riddled an unarmed teenager full of bullets about two minutes after first spotting him, was not acting responsibly and should be in jail for murder. (note that I haven't watched the video, I only read your description)