Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night)

[King]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lCWUufgRFU

Here's another one. The guy has a knife. The two officers spend five minutes trying to talk to the guy. Then they try the taser. The guy lunges at them.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. It's not. But it is what it is.

That looked more like stumbling to his feet than lunging at them.

Also, the dispatch call was that man was threatening to commit suicide, so shooting him in the head wasn't really a successful outcome.

[Lief 🗽]

So you agree that it's a lack of adequate training. Glad we spent two pages on that.

[King]

I'm going to tell you something, as someone who was trained on weapons in combat during military training. Do you think that those who are the trainers think any differently than me? Do you think a liberal educator from Berkeley is training police officers? No. It's probably some fat gray haired guy with a mustache who was driving around town as a patrolman when Jimmy Carter was President. They aren't training police officers to use restraint, they're training them to eliminate threats.

Yes. I believe a systemic problem is systemic. Thanks for asking.

To avoid lumping me in, I think the officer acted according to procedure and should not be prosecuted in this case. But the procedure is wrong.

[Reaganfan]

I'm going to tell you something, as someone who was trained on weapons in combat during military training. Do you think that those who are the trainers think any differently than me? Do you think a liberal educator from Berkeley is training police officers? No. It's probably some fat gray haired guy with a mustache who was driving around town as a patrolman when Jimmy Carter was President. They aren't training police officers to use restraint, they're training them to eliminate threats.

Yes. I believe a systemic problem is systemic. Thanks for asking.

To avoid lumping me in, I think the officer acted according to procedure and should not be prosecuted in this case. But the procedure is wrong.

I've heard liberals say things during the last 48 hrs up to and including "the cop should have been the one to back down."

Do they realize what they're saying or is it anger?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm going to tell you something, as someone who was trained on weapons in combat during military training. Do you think that those who are the trainers think any differently than me? Do you think a liberal educator from Berkeley is training police officers? No. It's probably some fat gray haired guy with a mustache who was driving around town as a patrolman when Jimmy Carter was President. They aren't training police officers to use restraint, they're training them to eliminate threats.

Yes. I believe a systemic problem is systemic. Thanks for asking.

To avoid lumping me in, I think the officer acted according to procedure and should not be prosecuted in this case. But the procedure is wrong.

I've heard liberals say things during the last 48 hrs up to and including "the cop should have been the one to back down."

Do they realize what they're saying or is it anger?

Effective policing requires to know when backing down is in the best interest of public safety.  By all accounts, the culture of the Ferguson Police was ignorant of that fact, and instead treated Cartman of South Park as a role model for how to be a police officer.

[King]

Not shooting someone is not backing down. What you're really asking is that police officers be devoid of strategy.

[Lief 🗽]

Naso wants police officers to act like soldiers who are part of an occupying force. He is a fascist and he wants fascism.

[TNF]

Violence is an absolutely justified form of political action if you are first attacked and you have absolutely no other recourse. The people of Ferguson are never going to get justice through their racist courts and from their racist cops. They realize that and have acted accordingly.

No recourse? Turnout was barely 10% in Ferguson's last mayoral election, and only about 6% among black voters. You don't expect that to change next April?

Voting tweedledee in instead of tweedledumb isn't going to change a damn thing in Ferguson because neither of the political parties we get to choose from right now have any coherent plan for dealing with police brutality and racialized policing because both parties have been responsible for the steady construction of the New Jim Crow since the 70s. Elections aren't a be-all, end-all. Especially when a good percentage of the people in question are denied the right to vote period because of a felony conviction.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

To paraphrase Maimonides, I'd rather a thousand petty thieves resist arrest and get away with it than one innocent person die. Hell, I'd rather a thousand petty thieves resist arrest and get away with it than one petty thief die.

This is even assuming Wilson's story isn't a baldfaced sociopathic lie.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The trouble with these sorts of situations is that the police don't particularly care to go after the thirty or so nuts who are smashing stuff up; and instead continue to apply pressure on the peaceful protesters; who are themselves further riled up. Both the police officers and protesters become irrational, angry and prone to bad decisions.

It's incredibly difficult to successfully go after everyone who is smashing things up in these situations. I don't believe it is a matter of not particularly caring.

Oh yes, I was trying to imply that. It's human nature to avoid the dangerous, active elements of a riot and focus on the "potentially volatile" sectors. Just as it's human  nature to react with terror at a bunch of police in full riot gear yelling at you and pushing you against each other.

The riot was so predictable, especially with the prosecutor making such a big song and dance during his presentation. He must have known what he would provoke by his words. Blood. On. Hands

What is the evidence that the police were avoiding the most dangerous elements if the riot? 

[Likely Voter]

There are a lot of different ways to look at all the evidence, especially if it could be put in the right context and scrutiny. You know what would have been a great way to do that? A trial..

[Eraserhead]

Whatever really happened, it's clear by the way that this was handled that the fix was in from the beginning. That's what's so frustrating about this to so many people.

Here's an interesting point made by a famously left-wing judge:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/11/26/3597322/justice-scalia-explains-what-was-wrong-with-the-ferguson-grand-jury/

[Kraxner]

Looking at the social media posts it seems like moderates/the middle along with conservatives are siding with the Officer. The left might of actually done a disfavor to itself by its constant whitewashing of Michael Brown into a saint.

If the left would just bother to look at the evidence instead of trying to create another social justice campaign they might actually realize that officer Darren Wilson's account of events is the most probable.

Also the left's defense of the rioting and looting have caused a lot of people in their side to drift away from their cause.

[Bacon King]

Looking at the social media posts it seems like moderates/the middle along with conservatives are siding with the Officer. The left might of actually done a disfavor to itself by its constant whitewashing of Michael Brown into a saint.

Nobody has claimed him to be a saint, but he's not some aggressive "demon" that he's been made out to be. And regardless of his attitude, personality, and history, none of that would in any way justify getting shot multiple times.

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I was dismissive of Ferguson until I looked at the evidence. There's no way that Wilson's account is "most probable". His entire testimony reads like a series of contrived and improbable nonsense. He had no basis to reasonable use his firearm and the entire account falls apart when you consider the body was located a good fifty yards further away from his vehicle than his sworn statement implies.

Instead of arguing what is probable or not, why not leave that to an actual court, with an actual prosecutor, following actual court procedure? That's the only sound way we can determine whether the killer's own account is in any way plausible.

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You mean the riot that Ferguson police almost certainly staged, so they could be sure that public opinion would be on their side after their sham of a grand jury decision was announced? They waited until night time for the verdict to ensure prime time coverage, and announced it well ahead of time so a good crowd would be there. They riled the crowd up by blasting them all with tear gas at the slightest hint of trouble, and then every officer fell back to "protect the police station". They let the riots run wild throughout the city without using any of that fancy military-grade hardware they're now infamous for owning. They even declined to escort firemen to burning buildings- because why put them out when it makes such great TV?

Nobody has defended the riots at all, merely pointed out that it was a small fraction of the people who were protesting peacefully. But Wilson apologists point to the riot as if it somehow justifies the verdict, even though it's entirely irrelevant to the injustice that occurred. An 18 year old boy's killer is free, never even forced to face a trial, because of a crooked small town lawyer who fixed the grand jury by arguing against his own case he was supposed to be prosecuting.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

Looking at the social media posts it seems like moderates/the middle along with conservatives are siding with the Officer. The left might of actually done a disfavor to itself by its constant whitewashing of Michael Brown into a saint.

If the left would just bother to look at the evidence instead of trying to create another social justice campaign they might actually realize that officer Darren Wilson's account of events is the most probable.

Also the left's defense of the rioting and looting have caused a lot of people in their side to drift away from their cause.

Congratulations, in one post you have quickly become as bad as Reaganfan. Hell, your signature is worse than anything Naso has ever had in his. Good job.

[Rockefeller GOP]

Looking at the social media posts it seems like moderates/the middle along with conservatives are siding with the Officer. The left might of actually done a disfavor to itself by its constant whitewashing of Michael Brown into a saint.

If the left would just bother to look at the evidence instead of trying to create another social justice campaign they might actually realize that officer Darren Wilson's account of events is the most probable.

Also the left's defense of the rioting and looting have caused a lot of people in their side to drift away from their cause.

Congratulations, in one post you have quickly become as bad as Reaganfan. Hell, your signature is worse than anything Naso has ever had in his. Good job.

Nice response, you totally schooled him.  All his points are now void!

I think the red avatars on this site legitimately log in thinking they're posting on a forum made for liberals, which is not how this place used to be.  Sad.

[RedSLC]

Looking at the social media posts it seems like moderates/the middle along with conservatives are siding with the Officer. The left might of actually done a disfavor to itself by its constant whitewashing of Michael Brown into a saint.

Solid evidence you've got there.

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I'll go with what Bacon King said here.

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Um, no it hasn't. You just made that up.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Those in charge of the police and the National Guard made some stupid decisions. but there were good reasons for waiting until night and giving people time to prepare for the announcement to get to safety.  During the day more people are at their workplaces, so they are going to be there when the thieves and arsonists show up, and someone is more likely to end up dead.  During the day more people are driving on the streets, which means more problems for roads being blocked by protesters, which makes it even more difficult for the police and emergency responders to get around. The fact is there was no good time to come out with these results of the grand jury (though the prosecutor himself is clearly an idiot).  This isn't evidence of some conspiracy.

[Bacon King]

Looking at the social media posts it seems like moderates/the middle along with conservatives are siding with the Officer. The left might of actually done a disfavor to itself by its constant whitewashing of Michael Brown into a saint.

If the left would just bother to look at the evidence instead of trying to create another social justice campaign they might actually realize that officer Darren Wilson's account of events is the most probable.

Also the left's defense of the rioting and looting have caused a lot of people in their side to drift away from their cause.

Congratulations, in one post you have quickly become as bad as Reaganfan. Hell, your signature is worse than anything Naso has ever had in his. Good job.

Nice response, you totally schooled him.  All his points are now void!

I think the red avatars on this site legitimately log in thinking they're posting on a forum made for liberals, which is not how this place used to be.  Sad.

Thanks for in any way responding to my argument

Those in charge of the police and the National Guard made some stupid decisions. but there were good reasons for waiting until night and giving people time to prepare for the announcement to get to safety.  During the day more people are at their workplaces, so they are going to be there when the thieves and arsonists show up, and someone is more likely to end up dead.  During the day more people are driving on the streets, which means more problems for roads being blocked by protesters, which makes it even more difficult for the police and emergency responders to get around. The fact is there was no good time to come out with these results of the grand jury (though the prosecutor himself is clearly an idiot).  This isn't evidence of some conspiracy.

If they were expecting- and seeking to prevent- a riot, why not just make an impromptu announcement without allowing hours for protesters to assemble? Isn't it much more likely people would end up dead if it's at night, when crowds are much harder to control? Where were the hundreds of national guardsmen that were apparently in Ferguson? Why did these guys pictured below not do anything to contain or limit the riot, and just fell back once they'd done just enough to get everyone pissed off?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Why the hell should someone who opposes the very concept of private property be concerned about property damage?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Why the hell should someone who opposes the very concept of private property be concerned about property damage?

If opposing private property is an end in itself and you don't give a flying fyck about people's actual lives, then you wouldn't.   

[7,052,770]

Why the hell should someone who opposes the very concept of private property be concerned about property damage?

I highly doubt many, if any, of the rioters/looters "oppose the concept private property" ...

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm guessing Snowstalker is a big fan of civil asset forfeiture. That's a great way to take away private property. 

[7,052,770]

Vox put together a pretty good chart:

[ElectionsGuy]

Why the hell should someone who opposes the very concept of private property be concerned about property damage?

Maybe if you're a decent person and care about other people?