Grand jury reaches decision in Ferguson case (Announcement Monday night)

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm avoiding this story for multitude of reasons EXCEPT this common point bugs me:

If you're going to riot and burn things, why would you do it to your own town?

It is NOT their OWN town, their OWN community. They don't actually own it. They don't own homes, they don't own businesses, many of them have to take public transportation. They don't pay property taxes. Ferguson, MO is just a place they happen to be stuck living in, not their own community.

That's why it's not that hard to imagine why people there would be so comfortable in destroying it.

They are destroying rented homes, rented businesses, and rioting on rented streets. No liability to them.

If you want a black community that isn't prone to "destroying their own community in riots" you need to give them opportunity for their own communities first.

Don't most businesses in most non-rural communities rent the property they use?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm avoiding this story for multitude of reasons EXCEPT this common point bugs me:

If you're going to riot and burn things, why would you do it to your own town?

It is NOT their OWN town, their OWN community. They don't actually own it. They don't own homes, they don't own businesses, many of them have to take public transportation. They don't pay property taxes. Ferguson, MO is just a place they happen to be stuck living in, not their own community.

That's why it's not that hard to imagine why people there would be so comfortable in destroying it.

They are destroying rented homes, rented businesses, and rioting on rented streets. No liability to them.

If you want a black community that isn't prone to "destroying their own community in riots" you need to give them opportunity for their own communities first.

Don't most businesses in most non-rural communities rent the property they use?

I think the point is they aren't "locally" owned. You've got corporate chains like Walmart and McDonald's. Probably some convenience stores and check cashing places whose owners are likely Asians or absentee whites. As far as businesses owned by people who are "from the community" I doubt there are many apart from perhaps the local barbershop or car repair place.

The number of  black-owned businesses there may be disproportionately small, but for those that are there it is a real pain to have to deal with this.
http://blog.blackbusiness.org/2014/08/black-businesses-in-ferguson-missouri-recovering-from-looting.html

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm avoiding this story for multitude of reasons EXCEPT this common point bugs me:

If you're going to riot and burn things, why would you do it to your own town?

It is NOT their OWN town, their OWN community. They don't actually own it. They don't own homes, they don't own businesses, many of them have to take public transportation. They don't pay property taxes. Ferguson, MO is just a place they happen to be stuck living in, not their own community.

That's why it's not that hard to imagine why people there would be so comfortable in destroying it.

They are destroying rented homes, rented businesses, and rioting on rented streets. No liability to them.

If you want a black community that isn't prone to "destroying their own community in riots" you need to give them opportunity for their own communities first.

Don't most businesses in most non-rural communities rent the property they use?

I think the point is they aren't "locally" owned. You've got corporate chains like Walmart and McDonald's. Probably some convenience stores and check cashing places whose owners are likely Asians or absentee whites. As far as businesses owned by people who are "from the community" I doubt there are many apart from perhaps the local barbershop or car repair place.

The number of  black-owned businesses there may be disproportionately small, but for those that are there it is a real pain to have to deal with this.
http://blog.blackbusiness.org/2014/08/black-businesses-in-ferguson-missouri-recovering-from-looting.html

And apparently the Sam's Meat Market in that story has now been torched.  Nice job looters.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This place is currently on fire:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/27/1325030/-Heal-STL-Opens-Storefront-In-Ferguson-to-Register-and-Organize-Black-Voters

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The vibe I got from the Prosecutor was that this would have likely never even been looked at, but due to the publicity they gave it a fair shot. No indictment doesn't mean you riot. White people did not riot after O.J.

Thanks for that distinction.

I don't mean to hit a nerve, but you know it's the truth. If Michael Brown were white, would Barack Obama have spoken to the country tonight?

You are right that he most likely wouldn't and it is because the situation got publicity.  They did have to do the grand jury whether or not the prosecutors thought they had a case to put against him, for that reason.   But the reason it got so much publicity is that it is a symbol, a synecdoche, of a larger threat that many blacks feel from the police. And because there is a history here of abuse and antagonism, they may feel that threat as being toward the community and not just toward just lone individuals.  Whites can feel a threat from the police at times, but it tends not to be as pervasive and there is not the same history.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

here's a map of the businesses that have been burned down in Ferguson (there may be more at this point):

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

You know, black-white relationships isn't the reason why he wasn't indicted.

In Quebec, we had various issues of policemen shooting on people without reason or speeding without reason, crashing into cars and killing people. Guess what? No indictments, even if both the policeman and the victim were very white. Police and prosecutors cover each other. Thankfully, Quebec gets a reform of that next year (well, the reform is done, but there is normal delays, you can't create a new structure the day the bill passes).

Yes, they were. You don't understand how the criminal justice system works in the United States.

What he describes as the situation in Quebec is actually the exact situation in the US. The racial aspect only strengthens it.

Well, seems like this has once against completely broken down along party and/or ideological lines, furthering my assumption that at the heart of American conservatism is something very, very bad. 

Strange, because I remember that a lot of conservatives I know (including my parents) thought that Zimmerman was guilty.  I'm sure it's the same with this.  As soon as I heard the report I thought that Wilson shouldn't have shot the teenager.  And I'm very conservative.

lolwhat? Did you watch Fox News for at least 10 seconds during Zimmerman's trial?

The fact that you think Fox News accurately describes the opinion of every conservative in America explains so much.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

If you're going to riot and burn things, why would you do it to your own town?

It's not their own town. They don't actually own it. They don't own homes, they don't know businesses, many of them have to take public transportation. They don't pay property taxes. Ferguson, MO is just a place they happen to be stuck living in, not their own community.

That's why it's not that hard to imagine why people there would be so comfortable in destroying it.

They are destroying rented homes, rented businesses, and rioting on rented streets. No liability to them.

Its more than that...they still shop at these places, live around those streets, etc.

The same people destroying the walmart tonight are going to be mad that its not open for 2 weeks after this.

It's not really more than that. If anything, they are creating economic prosperity for themselves. Wal-Mart will now have to further increase holiday staffing to clean up the mess. Nobody has any reason to care about the cost of the damage.

Until they are given real stable opportunity to own businesses and homes of their own, nobody will ever care about the cost of the damage.

But will Wal-Mart keep open the shop up again, Ferguson have seen a large demographic change from 2000 to 2010, it has become blacker and poorer (and I doubt we see that will turn around with what Ferguson now is famous for), there is a major risk than many of these shops, will just close down and their owners open new ones other places.

The Wal-Marts and Little Caesars and AutoZones can afford to open up shop again and hedge the risk. It's the small businesses - including and especially the black businesses - that will not be able to recover.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Haven't heard anything about rioting yet tonight. There just seems to be a whole bunch of peaceful protests. Perhaps the worst is over.

Doesn't seem to be as bad as last night, but a police car has been put on fire and then the police responded  with tear gas when the crowd didn't disperse.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

good article here on Ezra Klein on the testimonies of
Wilson and Brown's friend  http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7287443/dorian-johnson-story

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The trouble with these sorts of situations is that the police don't particularly care to go after the thirty or so nuts who are smashing stuff up; and instead continue to apply pressure on the peaceful protesters; who are themselves further riled up. Both the police officers and protesters become irrational, angry and prone to bad decisions.

It's incredibly difficult to successfully go after everyone who is smashing things up in these situations. I don't believe it is a matter of not particularly caring.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The trouble with these sorts of situations is that the police don't particularly care to go after the thirty or so nuts who are smashing stuff up; and instead continue to apply pressure on the peaceful protesters; who are themselves further riled up. Both the police officers and protesters become irrational, angry and prone to bad decisions.

It's incredibly difficult to successfully go after everyone who is smashing things up in these situations. I don't believe it is a matter of not particularly caring.

Oh yes, I was trying to imply that. It's human nature to avoid the dangerous, active elements of a riot and focus on the "potentially volatile" sectors. Just as it's human  nature to react with terror at a bunch of police in full riot gear yelling at you and pushing you against each other.

The riot was so predictable, especially with the prosecutor making such a big song and dance during his presentation. He must have known what he would provoke by his words. Blood. On. Hands

What is the evidence that the police were avoiding the most dangerous elements if the riot? 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Those in charge of the police and the National Guard made some stupid decisions. but there were good reasons for waiting until night and giving people time to prepare for the announcement to get to safety.  During the day more people are at their workplaces, so they are going to be there when the thieves and arsonists show up, and someone is more likely to end up dead.  During the day more people are driving on the streets, which means more problems for roads being blocked by protesters, which makes it even more difficult for the police and emergency responders to get around. The fact is there was no good time to come out with these results of the grand jury (though the prosecutor himself is clearly an idiot).  This isn't evidence of some conspiracy.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Why the hell should someone who opposes the very concept of private property be concerned about property damage?

If opposing private property is an end in itself and you don't give a flying fyck about people's actual lives, then you wouldn't.   

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm guessing Snowstalker is a big fan of civil asset forfeiture. That's a great way to take away private property. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Why the hell should someone who opposes the very concept of private property be concerned about property damage?

Good. Hand over the car or I'll smash your computer!

Those are both personal property. Private property refers to means of production.

Most of the buildings burned out were stores- "means of distribution," perhaps? And then of course the burnt out cars which definitely qualify as "personal property."

The better argument for property destruction (if that's what your interested in making) is that the convenience stores, gas stations, etc are not truly a part of the Ferguson community. They are owned by outsiders and their profits by and large are sucked out of the community, leaving only minimum wage dribblings for community members to survive on. If you accept that framework, destroying the corner store or lighting Taco Bell on fire is an act of resistance, a spontaneous one but still an action which strikes out at [capitalism/white supremacy/your power structure here] in a meaningful way.

You'd have to be ignorant of the situation and comfortably removed from reality to make such an  argument.  How many black people have to have their businesses destroyed, how many black people have their jobs taken away, before we stop hearing this sort of thing is justified in the name of sticking it to the white man?