Advent

[TJ in Oregon]

The season of Advent has always perplexed me somewhat as a liturgical season for a number of reasons. I'm never quite sure exactly what kind of period Advent is supposed to be. Traditionally, it was a time of fasting and penance in preparation for Christmas under the premise that we should be living in anticipation of Christ's coming both in Christmas and again at the end of the world, and in order to do that we go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and undertake particular acts of self-denial to further orient ourselves toward God rather than temporal things. But the Church has more or less done away with the teeth of Advent over the years and doesn't seem to really direct us toward fasting anymore. There is of course no bad time for penance, but Advent doesn't seem to be directed specifically toward that either. Then again there is always the question of whether or not it's okay to listen to Christmas songs during Advent, go to Christmas parties, etc. To avoid these things entirely is practically un-Christian in our society and exacerbates the problem posed by the question of whether or not we should be fasting. Obviously listening to Christmas music during Advent isn't sinful. But is it the proper way to observe Advent?

Advent, with the biting seriousness of fasting and penance removed, has long seemed to me an orphaned season with a confused purpose. Most years I ignore it entirely until about December 17th or so, go through a short series of prayers traditional to the final days of Advent, and otherwise more or less start celebrating Christmas.

What are your thoughts on Advent?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Honestly, I think it should have what you refer to as its teeth restored to it, and a lot of my offended backlash against Bushie about this in the Update thread is basically just the way I'm channeling offended backlash against the general habit of orphaning or ignoring a season that I think could serve a great and good penitential and conciliatory purpose. I'm not sure exactly how the Church (or churches, if you prefer) should go about rebuilding after such abject loss in the 'War on Advent', as it were, but I feel a spiritual and, frankly, sociological imperative to at least try, and I personally try to observe Advent in as fastidious and traditional a way as possible; id est, I have a wreath (complete with three purple candles, a pink candle, and a white candle in the center to remain unlit until midnight on Christmas Eve), while I don't entirely avoid Christmas music I do try to seek out carols with more somber or Advent-appropriate themes during these weeks, I'm (although it embarrasses me to admit this because of what it implies about the rest of the year) more fastidious about church attendance than usual, and I try to say the appropriate prayers, like you especially towards the end.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

I've always been a little confused on what Advent even is, but I'm also that way for a lot of Christian calendar events and seasons. I agree with you that it's become orphaned and removed, so it's basically pointless to me.


It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious, 2.) commercialized, and 3.) a bit corrupted by both the commercialization and self-centeredness that results as opposed to selflessness, but also the fact that Jesus was probably born in the spring and moving it to the most miserable time of the year just to gain some pagan followers or whatever really irritates the crap out of me.

So yeah, like Christmas, Advent has become a joke to me.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I've always been a little confused on what Advent even is, but I'm also that way for a lot of Christian calendar events and seasons. I agree with you that it's become orphaned and removed, so it's basically pointless to me.


It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious, 2.) commercialized, and 3.) a bit corrupted by both the commercialization and self-centeredness that results as opposed to selflessness, but also the fact that Jesus was probably born in the spring and moving it to the most miserable time of the year just to gain some pagan followers or whatever really irritates the crap out of me.

So yeah, like Christmas, Advent has become a joke to me.

I've never for the life of me understood why this bothers people, especially since it's far from clear that 'gaining pagan followers' was in fact the rationale (the celebration of Christmas likely antedates that of Sol Invictus, for one thing). It's not terribly important to the story as a whole what time of year Jesus was born in (unlike what time of year he died, which is very important), so what, exactly, is the problem with continuing to celebrate the Nativity at the time of year assigned to it through traditions that have been kept for far longer than the pagan religions that it was allegedly intended to co-opt even existed for? The insistence that some people have on pointing this out strikes me as a ridiculous and irrelevant 'gotcha' that does nothing but provide an opportunity to be pedantic, and is a distraction from anything that could potentially be a real issue with the way Christmas is celebrated.

[Deus Naturae]

It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious,

How so?

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A lot of the joy of Christmas comes from the expectation and exchange of gifts. What's wrong with that? Would you rather Christmas reverted to the solemn religious day it was in Medieval times? Personally, I think it's much better as a secular commercial holiday celebrating love, family, and plenty.

[politicus]

It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious,

How so?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A lot of the joy of Christmas comes from the expectation and exchange of gifts. What's wrong with that? Would you rather Christmas reverted to the solemn religious day it was in Medieval times? Personally, I think it's much better as a secular commercial holiday celebrating love, family, and plenty.

The idea that Christmas was a solemn religious day in the middle ages is rather ahistorical.

[Mopsus]

2.) commercialized

A lot of the joy of Christmas comes from the expectation and exchange of gifts. What's wrong with that? Would you rather Christmas reverted to the solemn religious day it was in Medieval times? Personally, I think it's much better as a secular commercial holiday celebrating love, family, and plenty.

I for one wouldn't mind Christmas gift-giving if what it amounted to was, "Hey! I couldn't help but notice that you've been eyeing this gift all year long, so I decided to show my love by buying it for you!", or, "Here you go! I saw this gift and immediately knew that it was something that you'd enjoy". Instead, it's more along the lines of, "Well, it looks like we've once again reached that time of year when people are obligated to shower one another with material goods. Here's $100 worth of items that someone of your demographic might plausibly find enjoyment in".

That just feels so empty to me.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

I've always been a little confused on what Advent even is, but I'm also that way for a lot of Christian calendar events and seasons. I agree with you that it's become orphaned and removed, so it's basically pointless to me.


It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious, 2.) commercialized, and 3.) a bit corrupted by both the commercialization and self-centeredness that results as opposed to selflessness, but also the fact that Jesus was probably born in the spring and moving it to the most miserable time of the year just to gain some pagan followers or whatever really irritates the crap out of me.

So yeah, like Christmas, Advent has become a joke to me.

I've never for the life of me understood why this bothers people, especially since it's far from clear that 'gaining pagan followers' was in fact the rationale (the celebration of Christmas likely antedates that of Sol Invictus, for one thing). It's not terribly important to the story as a whole what time of year Jesus was born in (unlike what time of year he died, which is very important), so what, exactly, is the problem with continuing to celebrate the Nativity at the time of year assigned to it through traditions that have been kept for far longer than the pagan religions that it was allegedly intended to co-opt even existed for? The insistence that some people have on pointing this out strikes me as a ridiculous and irrelevant 'gotcha' that does nothing but provide an opportunity to be pedantic, and is a distraction from anything that could potentially be a real issue with the way Christmas is celebrated.

Well if that really was the rationale, it just strikes me as brutally dishonest. And moving it to the coldest and darkest part of the year makes me hate it as well. Why not have Christmas when it's warm and the weather doesn't ruin everything? That's just a personal thing.

It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious,

How so?

People get Christmas-mania, put up decorations in November, talk incessantly about it, the music is crap, etc. It's over-done and goes for over two months, so it gets really annoying.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A lot of the joy of Christmas comes from the expectation and exchange of gifts. What's wrong with that? Would you rather Christmas reverted to the solemn religious day it was in Medieval times? Personally, I think it's much better as a secular commercial holiday celebrating love, family, and plenty.
[/quote]
See Morpsus' post. I don't care about solemness or being 100% serious 100% of the time. It's no longer about genuinely giving someone something and being happy to see your family; just like Thanksgiving, it's obligated that you do so. People care more about getting than they do about giving, charity, family, etc. It's become something to justify greed and self-centeredness, in my opinion. Christmas has become empty and devoid of meaning to a lot of people.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I've always been a little confused on what Advent even is, but I'm also that way for a lot of Christian calendar events and seasons. I agree with you that it's become orphaned and removed, so it's basically pointless to me.


It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious, 2.) commercialized, and 3.) a bit corrupted by both the commercialization and self-centeredness that results as opposed to selflessness, but also the fact that Jesus was probably born in the spring and moving it to the most miserable time of the year just to gain some pagan followers or whatever really irritates the crap out of me.

So yeah, like Christmas, Advent has become a joke to me.

I've never for the life of me understood why this bothers people, especially since it's far from clear that 'gaining pagan followers' was in fact the rationale (the celebration of Christmas likely antedates that of Sol Invictus, for one thing). It's not terribly important to the story as a whole what time of year Jesus was born in (unlike what time of year he died, which is very important), so what, exactly, is the problem with continuing to celebrate the Nativity at the time of year assigned to it through traditions that have been kept for far longer than the pagan religions that it was allegedly intended to co-opt even existed for? The insistence that some people have on pointing this out strikes me as a ridiculous and irrelevant 'gotcha' that does nothing but provide an opportunity to be pedantic, and is a distraction from anything that could potentially be a real issue with the way Christmas is celebrated.

Well if that really was the rationale, it just strikes me as brutally dishonest. And moving it to the coldest and darkest part of the year makes me hate it as well. Why not have Christmas when it's warm and the weather doesn't ruin everything? That's just a personal thing.

Because it's nice to enliven the dark and cold winters with festivities. Summertime doesn't need holidays to be enjoyable for most people.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

I've always been a little confused on what Advent even is, but I'm also that way for a lot of Christian calendar events and seasons. I agree with you that it's become orphaned and removed, so it's basically pointless to me.


It's overshadowed by Christmas, which is another holiday I hate because 1.) it's obnoxious, 2.) commercialized, and 3.) a bit corrupted by both the commercialization and self-centeredness that results as opposed to selflessness, but also the fact that Jesus was probably born in the spring and moving it to the most miserable time of the year just to gain some pagan followers or whatever really irritates the crap out of me.

So yeah, like Christmas, Advent has become a joke to me.

I've never for the life of me understood why this bothers people, especially since it's far from clear that 'gaining pagan followers' was in fact the rationale (the celebration of Christmas likely antedates that of Sol Invictus, for one thing). It's not terribly important to the story as a whole what time of year Jesus was born in (unlike what time of year he died, which is very important), so what, exactly, is the problem with continuing to celebrate the Nativity at the time of year assigned to it through traditions that have been kept for far longer than the pagan religions that it was allegedly intended to co-opt even existed for? The insistence that some people have on pointing this out strikes me as a ridiculous and irrelevant 'gotcha' that does nothing but provide an opportunity to be pedantic, and is a distraction from anything that could potentially be a real issue with the way Christmas is celebrated.

Well if that really was the rationale, it just strikes me as brutally dishonest. And moving it to the coldest and darkest part of the year makes me hate it as well. Why not have Christmas when it's warm and the weather doesn't ruin everything? That's just a personal thing.

Because it's nice to enliven the dark and cold winters with festivities. Summertime doesn't need holidays to be enjoyable for most people.

It's a personal preference. Not sure what the problem is...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've never for the life of me understood why this bothers people, especially since it's far from clear that 'gaining pagan followers' was in fact the rationale (the celebration of Christmas likely antedates that of Sol Invictus, for one thing).

People have this curious habit of forgetting quite how old Christianity actually is, don't they? Of course there's also a tendency to forget that it was a relatively unimportant festival until comparatively recently. Christ, there are parts of Northern England where Pentecost (in the guise of Whitsun) was the primary Christian festival within - though only just about now - living memory...

[The Mikado]

People get Christmas-mania, put up decorations in November, talk incessantly about it, the music is crap, etc. It's over-done and goes for over two months, so it gets really annoying.

There's some pretty good Christmas music. I always liked Angels We Have Heard On High (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THg8Yes6zec good performance here), Adeste Fideles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8BJxxnPBNk), Ding Dong Merrily On High (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J_2tKCwu7Q), and others. Ding Dong Merrily On High is actually from 1924, so there is some reasonably good modern Christmas music, it's not all the ancient stuff.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

As for the date, keep in mind that Xmas is but one of four interrelated substitutes for pagan solstice/equinox festivals.

There's also the Annunciation on March 25th, the Nativity of John the Baptist on June 24th, and last (and least in importance) The Conception of John the Baptist on September 23rd.  The Eastern Church places more emphasis on John than does the Western Church.  Given that the Bible states that the Annunciation occurred when Elizabeth was six months pregnant, the cycle is fixed by scripture, tho not any particular quarter, if one wants substitutes for such festivals.  However, since Spring already has Pascha and the relative importance of Sol Invictus at the time these dates were being set, it's not too surprising which quarter was chosen for each.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The association of the Annunciation with early spring probably has to do with an extra-scriptural Jewish belief that the prophets tended to die on the anniversary of (or at least at roughly the same time of year as) their conception. Once the spring festival was assigned to the Annunciation, which may have happened as early as the mid-second century, the rest of the cycle fell into place.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Traditionally, it was a time of fasting and penance in preparation for Christmas under the premise that we should be living in anticipation of Christ's coming both in Christmas and again at the end of the world, and in order to do that we go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and undertake particular acts of self-denial to further orient ourselves toward God rather than temporal things.

I'm guessing that's why it's called "Advent."

Anyway, the only kind of fasting I would consider would be from food and drink (like at Lent).

[SNJ1985]

Regarding the Christmas discussion, there's no mandate for such a holiday anywhere in the Bible. It is far more important for us to commemorate the death and resurrection of Christ than it is for us to commemorate His birth. That's not to say there is anything wrong with commemorating His birth; however, there is no Biblical commandment for us to observe any sort of holiday relating to it. Besides that, Christmas as celebrated by the vast majority of the population these days has virtually nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ. I definitely think God would much rather we gave the poor things they actually need instead of spending exorbitant amounts of money on big-screen TVs and whatnot. I also definitely don't think he's OK with us lying to our children about the existence of a mythical gift-giving figure.

If we're going to have a holiday about celebrating the birth of Christ, then that's what it should actually be about, and exclusively so.

[TJ in Oregon]

Regarding the Christmas discussion, there's no mandate for such a holiday anywhere in the Bible. It is far more important for us to commemorate the death of Christ than it is for us to commemorate His birth. That's not to say there is anything wrong with commemorating His birth; however, there is no Biblical commandment for us to observe any sort of holiday relating to it. Besides that, Christmas as celebrated by the vast majority of the population these days has virtually nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ. I definitely think God would much rather we gave the poor things they actually need instead of spending exorbitant amounts of money on big-screen TVs and whatnot. I also definitely don't think he's OK with us lying to our children about the existence of a mythical gift-giving figure.

If we're going to have a holiday about celebrating the birth of Christ, then that's what it should actually be about, and exclusively so.

Do you think it is sinful to participate in Christmas traditions that aren't overtly religious such as baking cookies or having a family gift exchange?

[SNJ1985]

Regarding the Christmas discussion, there's no mandate for such a holiday anywhere in the Bible. It is far more important for us to commemorate the death of Christ than it is for us to commemorate His birth. That's not to say there is anything wrong with commemorating His birth; however, there is no Biblical commandment for us to observe any sort of holiday relating to it. Besides that, Christmas as celebrated by the vast majority of the population these days has virtually nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ. I definitely think God would much rather we gave the poor things they actually need instead of spending exorbitant amounts of money on big-screen TVs and whatnot. I also definitely don't think he's OK with us lying to our children about the existence of a mythical gift-giving figure.

If we're going to have a holiday about celebrating the birth of Christ, then that's what it should actually be about, and exclusively so.

Do you think it is sinful to participate in Christmas traditions that aren't overtly religious such as baking cookies or having a family gift exchange?

I wouldn't say that baking cookies is sinful. With regards to the gift exchange, I do think it is sinful to be materialistic; and the gifts are the most important part of the holiday for many people. That's a problem.