Israel General Election Thread: March 17 2015

[ag]

Watching two ex-Soviet Jews argue is never a good idea (speaking as someone whose mother is an ex-Soviet Jew.) This is not proving an exception to the rule.

Just drop the "ex-Soviet", and you will be right

[MalaspinaGold]

So, she never, to the best of your knowledge, stole anything from anyone. Nor, for that matter, did the party she belonged to - though they might do that under certain circumstances. Nevertheless, in your definition, they are "thieves". If there is a definition of bullshyte, this is it.

You do not need to lecture me on Communism - I have been an anti-communist since before you were born. However, when God created Israel, he took three characteristics: 1) Jewishness, 2) basic human decency, and 3) supporting anybody but the Communists in Israel - and ruled that nobody can possess more than two out of three of these. Naturally, this puts me into a bind.

So can an Arab support anyone he/she wants? And if so, does this apply to the Druze?

[ag]

So, she never, to the best of your knowledge, stole anything from anyone. Nor, for that matter, did the party she belonged to - though they might do that under certain circumstances. Nevertheless, in your definition, they are "thieves". If there is a definition of bullshyte, this is it.

You do not need to lecture me on Communism - I have been an anti-communist since before you were born. However, when God created Israel, he took three characteristics: 1) Jewishness, 2) basic human decency, and 3) supporting anybody but the Communists in Israel - and ruled that nobody can possess more than two out of three of these. Naturally, this puts me into a bind.

So can an Arab support anyone he/she wants? And if so, does this apply to the Druze?

Yes, of course. Who are we to question the Wisdom of His Law?

[MalaspinaGold]

I'll make myself clearer: can an Arab/Druze support anyone he/she wants, while retaining human decency?

[ag]

I'll make myself clearer: can an Arab/Druze support anyone he/she wants, while retaining human decency?

Yes, of course. In Israel.

[MalaspinaGold]

But a Jew can't?

[ag]

But a Jew can't?

He can. In France.

[MalaspinaGold]

Moving aside from this silly discussion, Herzog gives the middle finger to Lapid, via the Haredim.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Netanyahu-says-will-bring-haredi-parties-into-next-coalition-abolish-criminal-sanctions-392570

[Gali]

Just think it's ironic that "THE great FF" for you is a commie

OTOH there's not doubt that Tamar Gozansky is a great FF.

There is doubt, communism is the antithesis of freedom.

LOL ...coming from a Likudnik .

My grandparents were communists , they were part of building the kibbutz movement , Rabin's parents were communists .

Bibi "  is the antithesis of freedom " danny , the communists have long gone .
We have replaced them with fascists ............
Bibi, Naftali Bennett and Avigdor Lieberman.

They win this election ......then Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein have won and god help us .

[Hnv1]

Tamar Gozanski is a true FF and like most western-commies don't care much for the revolution and spend most of their time helping poor and oppressed people. Your remark regarding a correlation between opposing the Gaza war and supporting Hamas is beyond absurd.
The last HP in maki was probably Villner.

Again this a political cartography forum if we must argue our politics let's do it in the international discussion forum not in the informative election thread.

[Famous Mortimer]

What was wrong with Villner?

[Hnv1]

What was wrong with Villner?

Kept supporting the USSR to the bitter end, in the late 90s when those stagnant old gits in maki central committee finally acknowledged the crimes of Stalin he splintered away with the rest of the Stalinist to form the Israeli Communist Forum. His legislative record was fairly dull considering he spent 40 years in knesset.

Maybe HP is a bit too much but he was no FF

[Vosem]

So, she never, to the best of your knowledge, stole anything from anyone. Nor, for that matter, did the party she belonged to - though they might do that under certain circumstances. Nevertheless, in your definition, they are "thieves". If there is a definition of bullshyte, this is it.

Someone who publicly says "we intend to steal these things, but unfortunately X keeps us from doing so" with pride is still morally culpable.

You do not need to lecture me on Communism - I have been an anti-communist since before you were born.

I have never said you do not have redeeming characteristics.

However, when God created Israel, he took three characteristics: 1) Jewishness, 2) basic human decency, and 3) supporting anybody but the Communists in Israel - and ruled that nobody can possess more than two out of three of these. Naturally, this puts me into a bind.

Into a bind of having some sort of weird discriminatory attitudes towards Israeli Jews, where you don't believe their state has a right to defense or the necessary high level of morality to hold national elections?

I'll make myself clearer: can an Arab/Druze support anyone he/she wants, while retaining human decency?

Yes, of course. In Israel.

Has the question of why it is that most Druze support Zionist parties ever crossed your mind?

Just think it's ironic that "THE great FF" for you is a commie

OTOH there's not doubt that Tamar Gozansky is a great FF.

There is doubt, communism is the antithesis of freedom.

LOL ...coming from a Likudnik .

My grandparents were communists , they were part of building the kibbutz movement , Rabin's parents were communists .

There is a difference, morally, between being a communist in 1915 (when the ideology was completely untested) or even 1950 (when it's results were still not widely known) and being a communist in 2015, when what results from the adoption of the ideology is common knowledge around the world.

Tamar Gozanski is a true FF and like most western-commies don't care much for the revolution and spend most of their time helping poor and oppressed people.

How has she done this? I'm not asking you in a hostile tone -- I'm legitimately curious about what it is that Gozansky can be said to have achieved.

Your remark regarding a correlation between opposing the Gaza war and supporting Hamas is beyond absurd.

Of course most of the people in the west, including in Israel, who have opposed the Gaza wars do not see themselves as strengthening Hamas. That's well-known.

[danny]

There is doubt, communism is the antithesis of freedom.

LOL ...coming from a Likudnik .

I'm not a Likudnik, but saying this is true regardless of your political affiliation, would be reasonable for anyone whom isn't Communist.

My grandparents were communists , they were part of building the kibbutz movement , Rabin's parents were communists .

So what? This doesn't change what Communism is, and I'm glad that both the Kibbutzim and Rabin didn't follow in their ancestors ideology and moved away from Communism.

Bibi "  is the antithesis of freedom " danny , the communists have long gone .
We have replaced them with fascists ............
Bibi, Naftali Bennett and Avigdor Lieberman.

Now you are just using fascist as some sort of generic insult against right wingers, the same way some American conservatives like to throw around the term Socialist against anyone to their left.

They win this election ......then Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein have won and god help us .

This is just fearmongering, and trying to paint anyone on the right as if they are all the same.
Also, you shouldn't count on good to help you. The Communists were right about this part, he doesn't exist.

[ag]

Into a bind of having some sort of weird discriminatory attitudes towards Israeli Jews, where you don't believe their state has a right to defense or the necessary high level of morality to hold national elections?

Nothing discriminatory. Part of my Jewish self-identification is that I do not like ispravniks of any origin. Unfortunately, all other Israeli parties have been parties of ispravniks. And I identify with the Jews. Which, in Israeli context, means Arabs.

[ag]

Condensing the discussion a bit, the problem is that, in Israeli context, even I would have been forced to join the Communist party - though, of course, ideologically I am as staunch an anti-communist as it gets. Unfortunately, at this point this is the only non-communal party - there are simply no other options available.  But that, of course, means, that you cannot make too many conclusions about an individual from his or her membership in the Communist party - there may be many good reasons to be there.

Now, of course, M. Liberman has forced the Communists to join a communal joint list, killing the last available alternative. But, at the very least, they still do have some separate identity (thank you, Mr. Khenin and Mr. Burg).

[Vosem]

Into a bind of having some sort of weird discriminatory attitudes towards Israeli Jews, where you don't believe their state has a right to defense or the necessary high level of morality to hold national elections?

Nothing discriminatory. Part of my Jewish self-identification is that I do not like ispravniks of any origin. Unfortunately, all other Israeli parties have been parties of ispravniks. And I identify with the Jews. Which, in Israeli context, means Arabs.

You're using ispravnik in a sense totally divorced from its historical context, the way the radical left likes to use "fascist" and the American right likes to use "socialist" -- meaning nothing more than "political grouping I don't like". You continue to give no actual reason for not liking them.

Condensing the discussion a bit, the problem is that, in Israeli context, even I would have been forced to join the Communist party - though, of course, ideologically I am as staunch an anti-communist as it gets. Unfortunately, at this point this is the only non-communal party - there are simply no other options available.

This is rather ridiculous; Hadash, Meretz, and Avoda are all clearly bicommunal parties, and if you include Druze as a minority you quickly grow to include all the non-religious parties. But more to the point, it's a common thing worldwide for national minorities to vote en masse for their own parties, or for one of the main option to the exclusion of others; does the presence of the SSW in Southern Schleswig make all the other parties non-communal? Are Republicans non-communal because 95% of blacks vote Democratic?

  But that, of course, means, that you cannot make too many conclusions about an individual from his or her membership in the Communist party - there may be many good reasons to be there.

The floor is yours -- please tell us what they are.

Now, of course, M. Liberman has forced the Communists to join a communal joint list, killing the last available alternative. But, at the very least, they still do have some separate identity (thank you, Mr. Khenin and Mr. Burg).

Eh, I don't think they've had as much as Meretz. Could be wrong though.

[ag]

1. In my idiolect I use ispravnik to mean "the guy who cuts Jewish beards". I admit, I do not even pretend to use it in a historic context. Try to abstract from the "historic context" and you will, hopefully, figure out what I mean.

2. As you can, probably, figure out, I have a problem considering any Zionist party "bicommunal".

3. The reason, of course, is, that, while I share with most of my Jewish brethren the fascination with Jewish history, I disagree on the lessons we are supposed to have learnt from it. Whereas I get from history the distaste to the figure of the ispravnik, Zionists merely objected to the ispravnik not being Jewish. I find that objection to be inadequate.

3a. Well, clearly, a party that these days, at the present level of diversity of US population, is represented in Congress almost exclusively by White Christians (a token Jew and a token black notwhithstanding) can hardly be perceived as non-communal.

4. Well, I guess, it is hard for me to be more explicit on why one could want to join Hadash (or to stay as far away from Israel as possible, in order to avoid joining Hadash, as is my case). To make it very plain: I do not like the ispravnik parties. More generally: I dislike nation states.

5. Meretz is a Zionist party.

I guess, I have been clear, haven´t I?

[MalaspinaGold]

1. In my idiolect I use ispravnik to mean "the guy who cuts Jewish beards". I admit, I do not even pretend to use it in a historic context. Try to abstract from the "historic context" and you will, hopefully, figure out what I mean.

2. As you can, probably, figure out, I have a problem considering any Zionist party "bicommunal".

3. The reason, of course, is, that, while I share with most of my Jewish brethren the fascination with Jewish history, I disagree on the lessons we are supposed to have learnt from it. Whereas I get from history the distaste to the figure of the ispravnik, Zionists merely objected to the ispravnik not being Jewish. I find that objection to be inadequate.

3a. Well, clearly, a party that these days, at the present level of diversity of US population, is represented in Congress almost exclusively by White Christians (a token Jew and a token black notwhithstanding) can hardly be perceived as non-communal.

4. Well, I guess, it is hard for me to be more explicit on why one could want to join Hadash (or to stay as far away from Israel as possible, in order to avoid joining Hadash, as is my case). To make it very plain: I do not like the ispravnik parties. More generally: I dislike nation states.

5. Meretz is a Zionist party.

I guess, I have been clear, haven´t I?

This is an objectively false statement. With your superior intellect I hope you can figure out why.

[ag]

I guess, my point becomes clearer if you read what I have been saying in the last two pages of that thread

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=207116.75

[ag]

1. In my idiolect I use ispravnik to mean "the guy who cuts Jewish beards". I admit, I do not even pretend to use it in a historic context. Try to abstract from the "historic context" and you will, hopefully, figure out what I mean.

2. As you can, probably, figure out, I have a problem considering any Zionist party "bicommunal".

3. The reason, of course, is, that, while I share with most of my Jewish brethren the fascination with Jewish history, I disagree on the lessons we are supposed to have learnt from it. Whereas I get from history the distaste to the figure of the ispravnik, Zionists merely objected to the ispravnik not being Jewish. I find that objection to be inadequate.

3a. Well, clearly, a party that these days, at the present level of diversity of US population, is represented in Congress almost exclusively by White Christians (a token Jew and a token black notwhithstanding) can hardly be perceived as non-communal.

4. Well, I guess, it is hard for me to be more explicit on why one could want to join Hadash (or to stay as far away from Israel as possible, in order to avoid joining Hadash, as is my case). To make it very plain: I do not like the ispravnik parties. More generally: I dislike nation states.

5. Meretz is a Zionist party.

I guess, I have been clear, haven´t I?

This is an objectively false statement. With your superior intellect I hope you can figure out why.

What else is a national homeland good for, if not to get your own ispravnik?

[MalaspinaGold]

By your definition Einstein wanted to get his own Ispravnik.

Though to answer the question more directly- if a person is in his own homeland, it's very much harder to get killed off (not saying it's not impossible, but it makes it much less likely to occur).

[ag]

What was wrong with Villner?

Kept supporting the USSR to the bitter end, in the late 90s when those stagnant old gits in maki central committee finally acknowledged the crimes of Stalin he splintered away with the rest of the Stalinist to form the Israeli Communist Forum. His legislative record was fairly dull considering he spent 40 years in knesset.

Maybe HP is a bit too much but he was no FF

Meir Villner... The name brings memory of my youth Then again, I am related by marriage to this gentleman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dragunsky

Can´t say I am proud of this either

[ag]

By your definition Einstein wanted to get his own Ispravnik.

But, apparently, he never wanted to live under one.

In any case, what does Einstein has to do with this? Are we discussing physics?

[danny]

What else is a national homeland good for, if not to get your own ispravnik?

So that no one else can act as an ispravnik over you, a particularly relevant concern when it comes to the Jewish people.