Israel General Election Thread: March 17 2015

[MalaspinaGold]

By the way, this has already been done before, in the last century. However, they called themselves Bundists. Would you care to restart the movement?

I have the same problem with this as with religion. If I believed in God, I would have been a rabbi. If I were a Marxist, I might have gone for the Bund. Though, of course, as far as I am concerned, the Bundists suffered from the same problem as the Zionists: they wanted "an autonomy in the affairs of the Jewish proletariat". And I do not want that.

Bundism and not Marxism are not the same. Quite the opposite in fact.

[ag]

There are, in fact, many dozens of subdivisions of Jewish people, no one group more Jewish than any other, but that does not mean "Jewish" as a category is any less legitimate.

Everything is legitimate. I am telling you my personal characterization - the one that I have found useful. That is all.

[ag]

By the way, this has already been done before, in the last century. However, they called themselves Bundists. Would you care to restart the movement?

I have the same problem with this as with religion. If I believed in God, I would have been a rabbi. If I were a Marxist, I might have gone for the Bund. Though, of course, as far as I am concerned, the Bundists suffered from the same problem as the Zionists: they wanted "an autonomy in the affairs of the Jewish proletariat". And I do not want that.

Bundism and not Marxism are not the same. Quite the opposite in fact.

I think you should read up on history here. Specifically, the 2nd congress of RSDLP

[ag]

Why would you ever support a party like Hadash then? In the last Knesset, 25% of its delegation were ispravniks.

Isrpavnik, like being - or not - in a majority, is a state of mind. Comrade Khenin, is, obviously, Jewish.

[MalaspinaGold]

More likely, there would be 4: the Haredim, the racists, the rabid anti-Zionists, and everyone else. I am fairly confident which would include the majority of the Jewish people, and thus would get priority over the word.

Many, many more. Sefardim, Ashkenazim, Russians, Georgians, atheists, Upper Eastsiders, etc. etc. The more the merrier!

The difference is that the Sefardi will not call the Ashkenazi any less of a Jew, nor will the Upper Eastsider to the Ethiopian, nor the Russian to the atheist. Hence they are all part of the "everyone else" category.

[ag]

More likely, there would be 4: the Haredim, the racists, the rabid anti-Zionists, and everyone else. I am fairly confident which would include the majority of the Jewish people, and thus would get priority over the word.

Many, many more. Sefardim, Ashkenazim, Russians, Georgians, atheists, Upper Eastsiders, etc. etc. The more the merrier!

The difference is that the Sefardi will not call the Ashkenazi any less of a Jew, nor will the Upper Eastsider to the Ethiopian, nor the Russian to the atheist. Hence they are all part of the "everyone else" category.

May be - or may be not. Today one may say one thing - tomorrow, something quite different

[MalaspinaGold]

By the way, this has already been done before, in the last century. However, they called themselves Bundists. Would you care to restart the movement?

I have the same problem with this as with religion. If I believed in God, I would have been a rabbi. If I were a Marxist, I might have gone for the Bund. Though, of course, as far as I am concerned, the Bundists suffered from the same problem as the Zionists: they wanted "an autonomy in the affairs of the Jewish proletariat". And I do not want that.

Bundism and not Marxism are not the same. Quite the opposite in fact.

I think you should read up on history here. Specifically, the 2nd congress of RSDLP

There is a difference of course. The Marxists mandated strict asimilation. The Bundists discouraged it.

Why would you ever support a party like Hadash then? In the last Knesset, 25% of its delegation were ispravniks.

Isrpavnik, like being - or not - in a majority, is a state of mind. Comrade Khenin, is, obviously, Jewish.

Care to define what a majority state of mind is? Based on the latest poll numbers, the Zionist left in Israel is obviously Jewish.

[ag]

You won't like them once you hand them razors.

That is exactly the point, which you do not understand. Nobody should be given razors.

Then, again, you would, probably, like a guillotine to play with.

[MalaspinaGold]

More likely, there would be 4: the Haredim, the racists, the rabid anti-Zionists, and everyone else. I am fairly confident which would include the majority of the Jewish people, and thus would get priority over the word.

Many, many more. Sefardim, Ashkenazim, Russians, Georgians, atheists, Upper Eastsiders, etc. etc. The more the merrier!

The difference is that the Sefardi will not call the Ashkenazi any less of a Jew, nor will the Upper Eastsider to the Ethiopian, nor the Russian to the atheist. Hence they are all part of the "everyone else" category.

May be - or may be not. Today one may say one thing - tomorrow, something quite different

And once they do, we have yet another schism.

[ag]

Care to define what a majority state of mind is? Based on the latest poll numbers, the Zionist left in Israel is obviously Jewish.

Which is why I find them more tolerable

[ag]

More likely, there would be 4: the Haredim, the racists, the rabid anti-Zionists, and everyone else. I am fairly confident which would include the majority of the Jewish people, and thus would get priority over the word.

Many, many more. Sefardim, Ashkenazim, Russians, Georgians, atheists, Upper Eastsiders, etc. etc. The more the merrier!

The difference is that the Sefardi will not call the Ashkenazi any less of a Jew, nor will the Upper Eastsider to the Ethiopian, nor the Russian to the atheist. Hence they are all part of the "everyone else" category.

May be - or may be not. Today one may say one thing - tomorrow, something quite different

And once they do, we have yet another schism.

As a confirmed schismatic, this is exactly what I would like. You know, if you have 3 Jews, you should have, at least, 4 parties, shouldn´t you?

[MalaspinaGold]

You dodge the point. That by your own definition, they are Jewish.

By the way, are the Ethiopians Jewish, because they are also a minority in Israel? I need to figure out exactly how much of a SJW you are.

[ag]

But they are Jews -- or, at least, some 80% of them are. Their ancestors have been through all the same tribulations and trials as yours.

Which is why I find their betrayal of the memory of our ancestors somewhat disconcerting.

[ag]

You dodge the point. That by your own definition, they are Jewish.

By the way, are the Ethiopians Jewish, because they are also a minority in Israel? I need to figure out exactly how much of a SJW you are.

Some of them are, and some of the are not. Naturally, the most Jewish of them are the Christians.

[ag]

You would read about a democratic state, with a Jewish majority and an Arab minority, that has a long record of treating all of its citizens as equal under the law (though it is defined as a state for the majority, as many states are), which is particularly impressive when you consider the atrocious records of its neighbors. You would also read about a state that has been attacked, for the identity ("race", if you will) of its people, time and time again, and then been blamed for defending itself -- the way, for instance, a child who finally snaps and breaks the schoolyard bully's arm will be suspended, not the bully.

Many thinks look good on Wikipedia, I know.

[MalaspinaGold]

So you are saying that the Zionist left is Jewish. And that also the Ethiopians are Jewish? Does this extend to the Russian Jews also?

[ag]

Those between you and proper Israeli nationalists? I must confess I can't imagine the two of you plotted on the same line, so I don't know what comes between you.

Well, I have no problem with Israeli-born guys, who love their country, find it self-sufficient, identify with their native Hebrew - and do not want to bother about the Russians, etc. As long as they consider the Zionist project done with and would view me (if I were to come to Israel) as no different from a Thai migrant (as long, of coruse, they do not mind the Thai migrants), I am fine with them. In other words, I what I object to is Israel being called a Jewish state - because I object to the pretence Jews need a state. I do not mind Israeli Jews having their state, though.

[ag]

So you are saying that the Zionist left is Jewish. And that also the Ethiopians are Jewish? Does this extend to the Russian Jews also?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For that matter, it used to extend to Tutsis in Rwanda, you know.

[ag]

I like this conversation: it has acquired the right shade of insanity, without which talking about Jewishness is impossible.

[Vosem]

There are, in fact, many dozens of subdivisions of Jewish people, no one group more Jewish than any other, but that does not mean "Jewish" as a category is any less legitimate.

Everything is legitimate. I am telling you my personal characterization - the one that I have found useful. That is all.

But you just told me 6 million self-identified Jews living in Israel are not, in fact, Jews at all.

Why would you ever support a party like Hadash then? In the last Knesset, 25% of its delegation were ispravniks.

Isrpavnik, like being - or not - in a majority, is a state of mind.

So it's just entirely arbitrary, with those who agree with you not being ispravniks and those who disagree being such? In that case we're right back where we started.

Comrade Khenin, is, obviously, Jewish.

I agree with this, though perhaps not for the same reason as you.

More likely, there would be 4: the Haredim, the racists, the rabid anti-Zionists, and everyone else. I am fairly confident which would include the majority of the Jewish people, and thus would get priority over the word.

Many, many more. Sefardim, Ashkenazim, Russians, Georgians, atheists, Upper Eastsiders, etc. etc. The more the merrier!

The difference is that the Sefardi will not call the Ashkenazi any less of a Jew, nor will the Upper Eastsider to the Ethiopian, nor the Russian to the atheist. Hence they are all part of the "everyone else" category.

May be - or may be not. Today one may say one thing - tomorrow, something quite different

Do you not think the Jews around the world are speaking in good faith?

As a confirmed schismatic, this is exactly what I would like. You know, if you have 3 Jews, you should have, at least, 4 parties, shouldn´t you?

Ag, is "Jew" a synonym for "minority", or is there something more to it? I'm confused.

But they are Jews -- or, at least, some 80% of them are. Their ancestors have been through all the same tribulations and trials as yours.

Which is why I find their betrayal of the memory of our ancestors somewhat disconcerting.

Would you rather they betrayed the ancestors who worked so hard to establish the Zionist movement in Europe, move it to the Middle East, and triumph, and have remained for all time under the rule of the ispravniks?

You dodge the point. That by your own definition, they are Jewish.

By the way, are the Ethiopians Jewish, because they are also a minority in Israel? I need to figure out exactly how much of a SJW you are.

Some of them are, and some of the are not. Naturally, the most Jewish of them are the Christians.

The Christians who seemed to flee to a state full of so-called "ispravniks" for protection. Hmm...

You would read about a democratic state, with a Jewish majority and an Arab minority, that has a long record of treating all of its citizens as equal under the law (though it is defined as a state for the majority, as many states are), which is particularly impressive when you consider the atrocious records of its neighbors. You would also read about a state that has been attacked, for the identity ("race", if you will) of its people, time and time again, and then been blamed for defending itself -- the way, for instance, a child who finally snaps and breaks the schoolyard bully's arm will be suspended, not the bully.

Many thinks look good on Wikipedia, I know.

Read elsewhere, so long as it is not a biased news source.

[ag]

Supporting human rights is incompatible with opposing the notion of people getting a homeland in which they are free from ispravniks, prejudice, and dictatorship, and supporting that these things be torn down.

But that has exactly nothing to do with Zionism, does it?

[ag]

Ag, is "Jew" a synonym for "minority", or is there something more to it? I'm confused.

It is not enough to BE a member of a minority. One has to FEEL a minority to be Jewish. Самое важное - знать, что ни в синоде, ни в сенате тебе места нет.

[ag]

Would you rather they betrayed the ancestors who worked so hard to establish the Zionist movement in Europe, move it to the Middle East, and triumph, and have remained for all time under the rule of the ispravniks?

My ancestors did not. By then we have diverged. Though, I guess, one of my great grand fathers (or, may be, a generation further) - did go to Palestine, but quickly came back.

[ag]

Do you not think the Jews around the world are speaking in good faith?

Of course they are speaking in good faith. And always saying different things.

[ag]

Comrade Khenin, is, obviously, Jewish.

I agree with this, though perhaps not for the same reason as you.

Wrong reasoning sometimes gives the right answer. Just try calculating 16/64 by canceling the sixes