Israel General Election Thread: March 17 2015

[MaxQue]

Question: You are opposed to a Jewish state, a Jewish state in Holy Land (like the Montreal Hasidics) or just opposed to religion-based states?

[ag]

Read elsewhere, so long as it is not a biased news source.

Well, that would, probably, exclude any text you would like

[Vosem]

Those between you and proper Israeli nationalists? I must confess I can't imagine the two of you plotted on the same line, so I don't know what comes between you.

Well, I have no problem with Israeli-born guys, who love their country, find it self-sufficient, identify with their native Hebrew - and do not want to bother about the Russians, etc. As long as they consider the Zionist project done with and would view me (if I were to come to Israel) as no different from a Thai migrant (as long, of coruse, they do not mind the Thai migrants), I am fine with them. In other words, I what I object to is Israel being called a Jewish state - because I object to the pretence Jews need a state. I do not mind Israeli Jews having their state, though.

You don't mind, I hope, Israeli-born guys who feel an attachment to other Jews around the world, who try to help them in their hour of need? (Such as Ethiopian Jews in the 1980s, soon afterward Russian Jews, etc.)

So you are saying that the Zionist left is Jewish. And that also the Ethiopians are Jewish? Does this extend to the Russian Jews also?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For that matter, it used to extend to Tutsis in Rwanda, you know.

Were Hutus Jews prior to Tutsis being Jews? Do any Jews live in Rwanda today?

I like this conversation: it has acquired the right shade of insanity, without which talking about Jewishness is impossible.

Me too -- I would not otherwise still be talking.

Supporting human rights is incompatible with opposing the notion of people getting a homeland in which they are free from ispravniks, prejudice, and dictatorship, and supporting that these things be torn down.

But that has exactly nothing to do with Zionism, does it?

Read again, more closely. I defined Zionism for you.

Ag, is "Jew" a synonym for "minority", or is there something more to it? I'm confused.

It is not enough to BE a member of a minority. One has to FEEL a minority to be Jewish.

On that note, are American Jews Jewish? They are a minority, true, but not in any particular way a persecuted one.

Самое важное - знать, что ни в синоде, ни в сенате тебе места нет.

Конечно. Есть синагога и кнессет, куда мы приглашены.

[ag]

Question: You are opposed to a Jewish state, a Jewish state in Holy Land (like the Montreal Hasidics) or just opposed to religion-based states?

Great question.

1. I think the original Zionist idea was harebrained. If some Jews wanted to be a part of a majority they always could assimilate. What made the Jewish community unique was precisely its perseverence in the Diaspora. The Zionists despised what really made Jews Jewish in my eyes, so they get no sympathy from me.

2. Now, that was then. Right now we have a fact of the existence of the State of Israel. I do not oppose the State of Israel any more than I would oppose the State of Papua New Guinea. What I oppose is the pretensions of - some - of that state's representatives to speak in the name of the Jews in general. They have no more right to speak in my name than - nor do I have any more to do with them than with - Papua New Guinea.

3. I do not particularly like religion-based (or, for that matter, nation-based) states, but I realize they exist and will exist for a long time to come. Do not have any problem with that, really. As long as they do not try to imply that I somehow should have any sort of allegiance to them.

[ag]

Well, I have no problem with Israeli-born guys, who love their country, find it self-sufficient, identify with their native Hebrew - and do not want to bother about the Russians, etc. As long as they consider the Zionist project done with and would view me (if I were to come to Israel) as no different from a Thai migrant (as long, of coruse, they do not mind the Thai migrants), I am fine with them. In other words, I what I object to is Israel being called a Jewish state - because I object to the pretence Jews need a state. I do not mind Israeli Jews having their state, though.

As long as they do not care about me any more than they care about my nauatl-speakign compatriots, I do not mind.

[ag]

Were Hutus Jews prior to Tutsis being Jews? Do any Jews live in Rwanda today?

Yes of course. Probably - do not know enough. Kwa, certainly, are.

[ag]

Read again, more closely. I defined Zionism for you.

And Communism, of course, is merely love for thy neighbor. If you agree with that definition, I agree with your definition of Zionism.

[ag]

On that note, are American Jews Jewish? They are a minority, true, but not in any particular way a persecuted one.

Those of them who do not scream when they hear words "Judeo-Christian" aren't.

[ag]

Конечно. Есть синагога и кнессет, куда мы приглашены.

До меня приглашение не дошло.

[Vosem]

Would you rather they betrayed the ancestors who worked so hard to establish the Zionist movement in Europe, move it to the Middle East, and triumph, and have remained for all time under the rule of the ispravniks?

My ancestors did not. By then we have diverged. Though, I guess, one of my great grand fathers (or, may be, a generation further) - did go to Palestine, but quickly came back.

To my knowledge, neither did mine. (My grandfather went to Israel, but he quickly died there). We are speaking of the ancestors of modern Israeli Jews.

Do you not think the Jews around the world are speaking in good faith?

Of course they are speaking in good faith. And always saying different things.

But the question is whether you think, all of a sudden, they will all change their minds.

Comrade Khenin, is, obviously, Jewish.

I agree with this, though perhaps not for the same reason as you.

Wrong reasoning sometimes gives the right answer. Just try calculating 16/64 by canceling the sixes

Quite the appropriate example (if a bit simplified), since I am replying to you and working on some late-night calculus simultaneously.

[MaxQue]

So, your issue with Israel is than they act like if they are the voice of the Jewish people?

[MalaspinaGold]

Question: You are opposed to a Jewish state, a Jewish state in Holy Land (like the Montreal Hasidics) or just opposed to religion-based states?

Great question.

1. I think the original Zionist idea was harebrained. If some Jews wanted to be a part of a majority they always could assimilate. What made the Jewish community unique was precisely its perseverence in the Diaspora. The Zionists despised what really made Jews Jewish in my eyes, so they get no sympathy from me.

2. Now, that was then. Right now we have a fact of the existence of the State of Israel. I do not oppose the State of Israel any more than I would oppose the State of Papua New Guinea. What I oppose is the pretensions of - some - of that state's representatives to speak in the name of the Jews in general. They have no more right to speak in my name than - nor do I have any more to do with them than with - Papua New Guinea.

3. I do not particularly like religion-based (or, for that matter, nation-based) states, but I realize they exist and will exist for a long time to come. Do not have any problem with that, really. As long as they do not try to imply that I somehow should have any sort of allegiance to them.

Ah, but this was not always an option. And even if it became an option at some point, doesn't mean it would stay that way.

Well, I have no problem with Israeli-born guys, who love their country, find it self-sufficient, identify with their native Hebrew - and do not want to bother about the Russians, etc. As long as they consider the Zionist project done with and would view me (if I were to come to Israel) as no different from a Thai migrant (as long, of coruse, they do not mind the Thai migrants), I am fine with them. In other words, I what I object to is Israel being called a Jewish state - because I object to the pretence Jews need a state. I do not mind Israeli Jews having their state, though.

As long as they do not care about me any more than they care about my nauatl-speakign compatriots, I do not mind.

So long as your Nahuatl speaking companions aren't persecuting you, I don't see why they should care that much about you either. As was noted, this has not always been the case, unfortunately. And in this case, care is perfectly justifiable.

[ag]

So, your issue with Israel is than they act like if they are the voice of the Jewish people?

Well, that is what concerns me, I guess.

[ag]

But the question is whether you think, all of a sudden, they will all change their minds.

Knowing our fellow-tribesemen, this can be pretty much guaranteed.

[ag]

So long as your Nahuatl speaking companions aren't persecuting you, I don't see why they should care that much about you either. As was noted, this has not always been the case, unfortunately. And in this case, care is perfectly justifiable.

But what if my nahuatl-speaking compatriots are persecuted? Is persecution a Jewish monopoly?

[ag]

Ah, but this was not always an option. And even if it became an option at some point, doesn't mean it would stay that way.

True. But achieving assimilation was a lot easier - and a lot less ethically problematic - then achieving a Jewish state.

But, in any case, that is a debate that stopped in 1947. At this point it is entirely irrelevant.

[Vosem]

Question: You are opposed to a Jewish state, a Jewish state in Holy Land (like the Montreal Hasidics) or just opposed to religion-based states?

Great question.

1. I think the original Zionist idea was harebrained. If some Jews wanted to be a part of a majority they always could assimilate. What made the Jewish community unique was precisely its perseverence in the Diaspora. The Zionists despised what really made Jews Jewish in my eyes, so they get no sympathy from me.

No Jew at that time would've said that what made Jews unique was their status as a minority -- it was their unique traditions and values, which they were trying (successfully) to protect.

3. I do not particularly like religion-based (or, for that matter, nation-based) states, but I realize they exist and will exist for a long time to come. Do not have any problem with that, really. As long as they do not try to imply that I somehow should have any sort of allegiance to them.

Not should -- but can, if you ever want to.

Read again, more closely. I defined Zionism for you.

And Communism, of course, is merely love for thy neighbor. If you agree with that definition, I agree with your definition of Zionism.

Why, communism is the seizure of private property, forced collectivization, shortages, and limitations imposed on internal movement, speech, and the practice of religion. We are speaking of what the two movements have actually done.

On that note, are American Jews Jewish? They are a minority, true, but not in any particular way a persecuted one.

Those of them who do not scream when they hear words "Judeo-Christian" aren't.

How many Jews in the world do you think are Jewish? (If you can understand the question.)

Конечно. Есть синагога и кнессет, куда мы приглашены.

До меня приглашение не дошло.

То что от приглашения отказался (как и моя семья), не означает что оно не дошло (и считать что не должно ни до кого не дойти, когда сам получил, довольно эгоистично). 

[MalaspinaGold]

Your Nahuatl speaking comrades are in which case welcome to secede from Mexico.

And no, persecution is not a Jewish monopoly. Persecution of Jews could be considered one however.

[ag]

No Jew at that time would've said that what made Jews unique was their status as a minority -- it was their unique traditions and values, which they were trying (successfully) to protect.

Which traditions and values? The Yiddish and other Diaspora traditions that Zionists despised? Or the religious traditions that the founders of the state did not care about a yota?

[ag]

Why, communism is the seizure of private property, forced collectivization, shortages, and limitations imposed on internal movement, speech, and the practice of religion. We are speaking of what the two movements have actually done.

Or claimed to have done? Because in one case you use one definition, and in another - the other.

[ag]

How many Jews in the world do you think are Jewish? (If you can understand the question.)

Anywhere between 1 person and 7 bln. Depends on the circumstances.

[ag]

То что от приглашения отказался (как и моя семья), не означает что оно не дошло (и считать что не должно ни до кого не дойти, когда сам получил, довольно эгоистично).  

Приглашали, увы, домой не к себе. Отослав, предварительно, хозяев на конюшню. Чем уж они так от коммунистов отличались?

[MalaspinaGold]

No Jew at that time would've said that what made Jews unique was their status as a minority -- it was their unique traditions and values, which they were trying (successfully) to protect.

Which traditions and values? The Yiddish and other Diaspora traditions that Zionists despised? Or the religious traditions that the founders of the state did not care about a yota?

They didn't despise the former. It was a natural byproduct of trying to scrub off the Europeanness from them. Which is perfectly natural, considering the circumstances.

[ag]

No Jew at that time would've said that what made Jews unique was their status as a minority -- it was their unique traditions and values, which they were trying (successfully) to protect.

Which traditions and values? The Yiddish and other Diaspora traditions that Zionists despised? Or the religious traditions that the founders of the state did not care about a yota?

They didn't despise the former. It was a natural byproduct of trying to scrub off the Europeanness from them. Which is perfectly natural, considering the circumstances.

So, they invented the notion of Jewishness, that had nothing to do with anybody they actually knew. This was no different from Spaniards trying to restore the Visigothic past, by denying the intervening 1500 years. May be you find that understandable - I do not.

[MalaspinaGold]

One could ask very well why they adopted Ladino instead- after all, we're not only talking about lily-white Jews here.

Hebrew would quite naturally weave a much closer fabric. I shudder to think of Arye Deri conversing in Yiddish, and Lieberman responding in Ladino. It would be chaos!