The tragedy of Scandinavia: the European daydream
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  The tragedy of Scandinavia: the European daydream
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Author Topic: The tragedy of Scandinavia: the European daydream  (Read 3351 times)
Richard
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« on: April 17, 2005, 12:50:03 PM »

I can't believe I'm reading this in the NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/weekinreview/17bawer.html?oref=login

I have attached the article for those that don't have BugMeNot.  Here is a summary for those that don't want to read the article (I encourage you to read it though, because it is interesting and revealing.)


Basically, this was written by an American living in Norway for the past six years.  Norway is a country with lots and lots of taxes and a lavish welfare system.  Some observations:

Keeping the image of the welfare state up so that citizens don't question them
Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections, yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.

- library collections are woefully outdated in Oslo
- public swimming pools are in desperate need of maintenance
- newspapers describe serious shortages of police officers and school supplies
- hospitals run low on supplies; the author describes how his mother-in-law went to a hospital and they were out of cough medicine

Some observations by the American after moving to Norway:

- I quickly noticed that Norwegians live more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks.

- In the United States, a worker may go to the deli for lunch.  In Paris, maybe some wine with a meal at a restaurant.  In Norway, people can't afford to eat out and they pack their own lunch, every day.

- A lowly pizza will run you $36 to $48 in Oslo, plus 25% sales tax, plus delivery charges if it has to be delivered.  People can't afford to eat out.  (Imagine a salary of $50,000 a year [teacher's salary], and over half of that goes to INCOME taxes.)

- Every weekend, armies of Norwegians drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline (in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.


Now, the study done by Timbro, a Swedish research organization, who compared the European Union member states (15 of them) with the states in the United States.

- the only European country whose economic output per person was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of Connecticut

- the next European country on the list was Ireland, down at 41st place out of 66;

- Sweden was 14th from the bottom (after Alabama), followed by Oklahoma, and then Britain, France, Finland, Germany and Italy.

- The bottom three spots on the list went to Spain, Portugal and Greece.

- Alternatively, the study found, if the E.U. was treated as a single American state, it would rank fifth from the bottom, topping only Arkansas, Montana, West Virginia and Mississippi.

The author continues to say that one of the details in the study, the fact that Scandinavian countries are at the top and Spain near the bottom, didn't feel quite right.  His example:

My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than Scandinavians. In Norwegian pubs, for example, anyone rich or insane enough to order, say, a gin and tonic is charged about $15 for a few teaspoons of gin at the bottom of a glass of tonic; in Spain, the drinks are dirt-cheap and the bartender will pour the gin up to the rim unless you say "stop."

He then elaborates on a study by KPMG regarding disposable income adjusted for cost of living.  Denmark had the lowest income, then Norway, then Sweden.  Spain and Portugal was the two two countries with the most disposable income.

While the private-consumption figure for the United States was $32,900 per person, the countries of Western Europe (again excepting Luxembourg, at $29,450) ranged between $13,850 and $23,500, with Norway at $18,350.

I'm happy I don't live there.
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Richard
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2005, 12:51:23 PM »

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KEmperor
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2005, 01:24:01 PM »

Facinating, and I can't believe that it was written in the New York Times either.  Just goes to show you that you can't completely stereotype a newspaper, I guess.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2005, 01:37:40 PM »

And? Norway has it's problems... the current centre-right government (propped up by the far right) has f***ed up the economy (which wasn't doing that well anyway) and will get it's electoral comeuppance later this year.

What the article doesn't do is compare like with like... Norway has a different culture to the U.S and it prioritises different things... like it or not Norway does have a high standard of living and is a more equal country than the U.S.
People in different places value somethings more than people in other places. Diversity is a great thing and it'd be nice if people appreciated it a bit more.

Seeing as this thread is going to turn into a "Europe is collapsing/about to be taken over by Muslims/etc/etc/etc I don't know why I bothered to write the above..
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opebo
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2005, 03:13:14 PM »
« Edited: April 17, 2005, 03:28:15 PM by opebo »

What a lot of anecdotal nonsense!

Heres the real situation:
Norway  - GDP per capita: $40,529
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Norway
US - GDP per capita: $32,517
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Unitedstates

There you have it from a right-wing source, Norway is much richer than the USA.  Of course GDP per capita is not the best measure of quality of life - Norway probably also has less inequality so the average person is probably even better off than the roughly 25% higher standard of living suggests!
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ragnar
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2005, 03:18:20 PM »

Norway is one of the riches country in the world. They live of the oil in northsea.
But itīs correct that they use old furnitore and cars, but thats because they share a trait with the rest of scandiniavia, they are stingy and hate waste, and quate proud of it.
Itīs always a problem when people make comparison about  anothers culture and their own, you should know this as a white South African mr. Richius
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jfern
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2005, 03:19:46 PM »

The cost of living is probably lower outside of the major cities, just like in the US.
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Richard
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2005, 05:00:34 PM »

Adjust for differences in euros and dollars.

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GDP per capita is hardly an indicator for "richness," and certainly not if it isn't adjusted.

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I'll give you that.  More equality, but the average standard of living must be rather low if a drink in a bar is $15 and a pizza costs up to $48.
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Richard
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2005, 05:06:15 PM »

Norway is one of the riches country in the world. They live of the oil in northsea.
The oil is running out.  And how evil is it that they're using OIL MONEY to fund their lavish lifestyles that you seem to be advocating that they have?  Come now.  The common people can't even afford to buy lunch!

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Actually no.  That is not what the article says.  Read it.  They were astonished at the prosperity in the United States.  They can't afford it.  I mean, Denmark has a 180% tax on new cars, exclusing sales taxes and duties.  They just CAN'T AFFORD NEW CARS.

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In this case, it was written by an American having lived there SIX YEARS.  I think he is quite able to make a judgment call.
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ragnar
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2005, 05:31:27 PM »

Norway is one of the riches country in the world. They live of the oil in northsea.
The oil is running out.  And how evil is it that they're using OIL MONEY to fund their lavish lifestyles that you seem to be advocating that they have?  Come now.  The common people can't even afford to buy lunch!
I am born in to an middelclass family (+100 000$), my father is an politician (and teacher), both my parent take food with them to work.
My parents own three houses and two cars, they could buy food at work, but there is a tradition that you take food with you to work, in truth it is low class to buy food every day at work, because this show that you donīt have the time to make it youself

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Actually no.  That is not what the article says.  Read it.  They were astonished at the prosperity in the United States.  They can't afford it.  I mean, Denmark has a 180% tax on new cars, exclusing sales taxes and duties.  They just CAN'T AFFORD NEW CARS.

Itīs correct that must danes doesnīt drive in a car who is younger than 2 years, but itīs not common to drive in a car, who is older than 8 years
Most danes know that other countries have MUCH cheaper cars, but while we hate to pay so much we live with it and in truth can afford it. In the end itīs about priority

Itīs always a problem when people make comparison about  anothers culture and their own, you should know this as a white South African mr. Richius
In this case, it was written by an American having lived there SIX YEARS.  I think he is quite able to make a judgment call.

How long have Michael Moore lived in USA
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Jake
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2005, 06:12:16 PM »

whoa, middle class is 100K dollars Shocked
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Richard
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2005, 06:16:38 PM »

whoa, middle class is 100K dollars Shocked
Doubtful.  Maybe 100K norse dollars or something.
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ragnar
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2005, 06:22:49 PM »
« Edited: April 17, 2005, 06:28:11 PM by ragnar »

whoa, middle class is 100K dollars Shocked
Doubtful.  Maybe 100K norse dollars or something.

no, but you should remember that this is per anno before taxes.
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Richard
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2005, 06:32:55 PM »

whoa, middle class is 100K dollars Shocked
Doubtful.  Maybe 100K norse dollars or something.

no, but you should remember that this is per anno before taxes.
It is not middle class, no matter what you say.
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ragnar
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2005, 06:37:09 PM »
« Edited: April 17, 2005, 06:48:16 PM by ragnar »

whoa, middle class is 100K dollars Shocked
Doubtful.  Maybe 100K norse dollars or something.

no, but you should remember that this is per anno before taxes.
It is not middle class, no matter what you say.

why?
I do tend to agree that itīs a lot of money for middle class, but you should remember, that this is two people who have worked their entire life,and who is on last step on wagelatter before retirement, when I was young child their wage was a lot lower.
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Lunar
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2005, 09:51:42 PM »

whoa, middle class is 100K dollars Shocked
Doubtful.  Maybe 100K norse dollars or something.

no, but you should remember that this is per anno before taxes.
It is not middle class, no matter what you say.

For a total family's income, it's not THAT high.  Many professions make over $50,000, and if you have both your parents working it's quite reasonable that the total (before taxes) would be over 100k.
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opebo
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2005, 03:54:23 PM »
« Edited: April 18, 2005, 03:57:02 PM by opebo »

Adjust for differences in euros and dollars.

What on earth do you mean?!  The figures are both in dollars, so both have obviously already been adjusted to dollars. 

Besides I don't even think Norway is in the Euro.
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M
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2005, 04:48:27 PM »

It's not even in the EU, in fact.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2005, 04:58:04 PM »

It's not even in the EU, in fact.

And isn't going to join up in the short term either
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Jens
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 09:42:45 AM »

Hum, let's analyse this little article a bit

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Quite a start. You kind of know that he is slightly hostile towards the welfare system from this beginning, but let's keep an open mind

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Libraries being outdated! I would like to see the statistic evidence and do remember libraries and swimming pools maintenance are municipal tasks. Don't blaim all Norwegians for the failure of the centre-right administration in Oslo.
Nice story about his mother-in-law. Useless, but nice. One incident doesn't prove the fallacies of an entire system.

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Uhmm, recycling and the use of low energi long lasting appliances are quite popular in Scandinavia and promoted by the governments - and really using material goods as a mesurement of standard of living is doomed to give a flawed picture. Nice story about the teenager and all the "wrecks" Different transportation cultures. We use bikes and trains and other strange kinds of public transportation (all students gets 50% off train fares in Norway) - and perhaps he was looking at the enormous gassgursling monsters that are so popular in the US Wink

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Matpakke, madpakke, lunchpacket (I don't know the Finnish word) is the classic way of eating lunch in Scandinavia. Café culture and eating out is rather new fenomenons

An pizza prices. For some reason Norway is very expensive on pizzas (and the prices are between 18$ and 40$). In Denmark and Sweden it is possible to get pizzas from 6$

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Norway has to import the majority of its food, and including transport costs (The distance from Oslo to the northenmost tip of the country is the same as Oslo to Rome) adds up. And 6$ per gallon is fairly standard in Europe. Perhaps the US prices were atificially low?? Wink

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Timbro, yes Timbro. Financed by Svenskt Näringsliv, the Swedish employers organisation and probably the most right wing thinktank in Scandinavia. Oboy, do they luuuuuv the welfare system

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Purchasing powers, yes purchasing powers. It all depends on how you calculate the figures. If the figures are wages with tax deducted and VAT and other extras added yes, the purchasing powers of the Scandinav seems lower, but if you add all the extra money spend on private pensions, social security, heath insurance, education ect I am sure that the picture will be more nuanced. (And Johan Norberg works at Timbro. A source isn't validated by another source from the same frame)

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uhms I always forget how important the price of G'n'T is to economics. And I might add that high alcohol prices are a deliberate policy in Norway and Sweden to limit the consumation and that 15$ is about the minimum wage in the Scandinavian countries


All in all quite an entertaning article that represents the classical problem of understanding the conservatives of America has when it comes to the wellfare state. Yes the money at hand might be lesser but the security is larger. And then is all comes down to what you prefer
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Jens
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2005, 09:46:45 AM »

whoa, middle class is 100K dollars Shocked
Doubtful.  Maybe 100K norse dollars or something.

no, but you should remember that this is per anno before taxes.
It is not middle class, no matter what you say.

For a total family's income, it's not THAT high.  Many professions make over $50,000, and if you have both your parents working it's quite reasonable that the total (before taxes) would be over 100k.

That kind of wage is common in Denmark. Actually making 25.000 DK kroner per month = 50.000$ pro anno isn't in any way a high wage. 80.000+ is getting there. The starting salary for many academics is around 60.000. And add to that that most families has two incomes (We have very few housewifes)
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opebo
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2005, 12:39:05 PM »

Great posts Jens, sounds like all the Scandinavian countries are way ahead of the US economically.  As if this were ever in doubt!
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