Direct Democracy and Representative Government
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Author Topic: Direct Democracy and Representative Government  (Read 1557 times)
JohnFKennedy
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« on: April 17, 2005, 03:13:52 PM »

"Direct democracy and direct action can never achieve much. Representative government is the only viable form of democracy in the modern state." Discuss

(Taken from an AQA Government and Politics A-level paper from June 2003)
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A18
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2005, 03:29:55 PM »

Direct democracy almost acheived the full repeal of the Massachusetts income tax. Though that probably would have sucked, since it's a flat rate right now, and when they brought it back it'd be progressive.
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David S
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2005, 03:32:17 PM »

Someone once said that a pure democracy is like a sheep sitting down with two wolves to decide what's for dinner.

Our founders understood the problems with it and created our constitutional Republic as a means of giving the people control of the government without allowing the majority to trample the rights of the minority.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2005, 09:48:06 PM »

Pretty much a correct quote, though direct democracy could accomplish a little bit(though a lot of bad, too). People can't take the time and effort to vote on every issue, plus you get the tyranny of the majority. Still also I'd like you to imagine having a Florida recount for everything everyone votes on. Wink
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angus
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2005, 01:48:19 PM »

"Your people, sir, are a beast."
   --Alexander Hamilton


Left to their own devices, people will make the worst decisions.  Isn't it a national humiliation that in a nation of over 293 million people, the best we can come up with are the likes of Albert Gore and George Bush to duke it out to represent us?  This is because the primaries went away from smoke-filled backroom negotiations and into the hands of the partisans, i.e., the People.  We end up voting against either Gore or Bush, based on who offends us least.  And that is a sad state of affairs. 

"You don't ask lawyers to try to fix your plumbing.  Don't ask plumbers to try to write your laws."
  --angus
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Redefeatbush04
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2005, 02:11:34 PM »

People are not intelligent enough to govern themselves - it is as simple as that. In a perfect world direct democracy is the best form of government - but our world is far from perfect. We should leave the decisions to those who understand them. For example: How much does the average american know about relations between the US and Myanmar. Nuff said.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2005, 05:23:44 PM »

"You don't ask lawyers to try to fix your plumbing.  Don't ask plumbers to try to write your laws."
  --angus

Don't ask lawyers to write your laws either. Wink
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John Dibble
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2005, 05:25:13 PM »

People are not intelligent enough to govern themselves - it is as simple as that.

They're generally not intelligent, or at least informed, enough to vote on every aspect of goverment. They are however intelligent enough to run the aspects of their own day to day lives. I'm hoping this is what you meant by this.
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A18
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2005, 05:25:59 PM »

Direct democracy is the only way the Libertarian Party can get anything done. They should put initiatives on the ballot to legalize drugs, prostitution, etc., repeal as many taxes as possible, implement a flat payroll tax, etc.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2005, 05:32:09 PM »

Direct democracy is the only way the Libertarian Party can get anything done. They should put initiatives on the ballot to legalize drugs, prostitution, etc., repeal as many taxes as possible, implement a flat payroll tax, etc.

LOL. Wink
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A18
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2005, 05:35:03 PM »

Direct democracy is the only way the Libertarian Party can get anything done. They should put initiatives on the ballot to legalize drugs, prostitution, etc., repeal as many taxes as possible, implement a flat payroll tax, etc.

LOL. Wink

A Libertarian initiative in Massachusetts won 45% of the vote. If it had passed, it would have repealed all Massachusetts state taxes on personal income: wages, passive income (interest and dividends) and capital gains.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2005, 05:37:06 PM »

Direct democracy is the only way the Libertarian Party can get anything done. They should put initiatives on the ballot to legalize drugs, prostitution, etc., repeal as many taxes as possible, implement a flat payroll tax, etc.

LOL. Wink

A Libertarian initiative in Massachusetts won 45% of the vote. If it had passed, it would have repealed all Massachusetts state taxes on personal income: wages, passive income (interest and dividends) and capital gains.

I don't doubt it. Still, direct democracy is dangerous if you get too much of it. Imagine if anti-gun people were the majority and they wanted to ban guns - direct democracy would make it possible.
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A18
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2005, 05:44:38 PM »

Which is why there need to be restrictions. For example, the Bill of Rights should not be amendable by initiative. I also support amending the states' constitutions to require two-thirds majorities to amend each respective Bill of Rights, ratified by no less than 60% of the voters.

Also, no government spending initiative should be allowed (see California for direct democracy gone terribly wrong).
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John Dibble
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2005, 05:49:56 PM »

Which is why there need to be restrictions. For example, the Bill of Rights should not be amendable by initiative. I also support amending the states' constitutions to require two-thirds majorities to amend each respective Bill of Rights, ratified by no less than 60% of the voters.

Also, no government spending initiative should be allowed (see California for direct democracy gone terribly wrong).

Indeed. I'm not totally against it in all cases, but the question was mainly about which was a better system for a large scale government in my view.
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Citizen James
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2005, 03:28:47 AM »

Though I disagree with the derisive comments about humanity, I do agree that representitive democracy is the most efficent system.   It could use a few tweaks, but overall it's conceptually solid.

The problem with direct democracy is that people by and large don't have enough time to study all the minutia of public policy.  I think people are generally smarter than they are given credit for.   The way the world works these days though is division of labor.  People specialize in specific tasks, and then comerice allows the exchange of goods and services.   This specialization allows the total amount produced to be far more than if everyone was a jack of all trades.

There's a lot of paperwork and procedure in running the government, and in the details of policy.  Even amateur wonks like us can't keep track of all the details of policy.   It's a full time job even for a moderately sized overworked staff.

Ideally, we (the people) are the owners of government.  We make the major hiring decisions, try and give our employees the general picture of what we want, and keep half an eye on them so they don't slack off too much.

As for smarts, smart is overrated.   Not that I have anything against being smart, I'm pretty bright myself - it's just that being smart and having sense are two different things.  They aren't mutually exclusive, but they're not the same thing either.  I've seen enough smart people (University level students - the top 5-10% of the population standardized test wise) do incredibly dumb things. Drink with the intent of getting alcohol poisioning.  Actively participate in, buy into, and try and sell a ponzi scheme. 

I do have some concern about people who get a little too isolated from life - so caught up in theories and ideas that they don't take a good look at what is and isn't working in the real world.  And that doesn't just apply to one party.  Academic socialists and think tank neoconservatives share a total disconnect with reality, seeing only their theories and how they think things 'should' work.

I can't say representitve democracy is perfect, but it's the best the world has come up with so far.
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Platypus
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2005, 03:41:07 AM »

I'm not sure if you have referendums in the UK, but I feel changeds to the way representative democracy runs should be made through direct democracy, otherwise basically rep. is the way to go, imho.
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