Sanity in Foreign Policy Act (Passed)

[Lumine]

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I don't see a problem with that. The US shouldn't have aided the British imperialists in a contest against German imperialists.

You're not serious, are you?

[TNF]

I oppose all inter-imperialist wars, so yes, I'm completely serious.

[Lumine]

Ah, so you would rather see the Nazis in power across Europe. That's certainly a very realistic point of view...

[TNF]

Ah, so you would rather see the Nazis in power across Europe. That's certainly a very realistic point of view...

Nah, the Soviets would have wiped them out. They pretty much did single-handedly as is.

[Lumine]

Ah, so you would rather see the Nazis in power across Europe. That's certainly a very realistic point of view...

Nah, the Soviets would have wiped them out. They pretty much did single-handedly as is.

We're getting way off topic here, but that is a pretty idealistic view, to say the least.

[Bacon King]

TNF what about lend lease to the USSR?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

AYE

[TNF]

TNF what about lend lease to the USSR?

Would still oppose, given that the actual aims of the lending party were not aligned with the best interest of the workers' state in any real sense.

[bore]

By a vote of 5-1-1 Bacon King's amendment has been adopted

Aye: Bore, Yankee, Bacon King, Cranberry, JCL

Nay: TNF

Abstain: Windjammer

Not voting: Polnut, Deus

[Cranberry]

Ah, so you would rather see the Nazis in power across Europe. That's certainly a very realistic point of view...

Nah, the Soviets would have wiped them out. They pretty much did single-handedly as is.

As I am living in the area that would have been affected by the "Soviets wiping them out", I very much like it that I was not born 300 kilometres to the East, in an area that experienced precisely that "Soviet-wiping-out". I am extremely glad that our nation's predecessor intervened in that war, as is every other German, Austrian, Czech, Belgian, Dutch, Luxemburgian, French, Italian, Slovenian, Serbian, Croatian, Hungarian, Slovakian, Pole...

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The traditional attack on classical liberals like Jefferson was that it presumed the good of man would never succumb to the evil of man.

Marxism presumes that the formation of a classless society will eventually purify man of evil and gov't will then become unnecessary. The class divisions of the world are not the root of humanity's evil, humanity is the root of all the world's evil. Any system that calls for the end of gov't now or end the future fails to account for the fact that humanity will require protection from itself and gov't of some size will always be necessary for that reason that will allow for improvements to be made and then protect those improvements over time, slowing adding to them. 

I have said before that History is won be imperfect men. Is drowning the world in the sea of fascism a worthy cost for protesting the imperfections of Churchill and Stalin? In the former at least and in the US, you have a system that allows for change over to time to correct such ills. The only way a system like that of Stalin or Hilter's can can promise reform is through a river of blood.

[Lumine]

I am more or less satisfied with Bacon King's amendment and I would indeed sign the bill if passed by the Senate, but I wonder if we could amend Section 2. I understand the point of not training paramilitary personnel due to past experiences and they potential to be unreliable, but I think there's a legitimate point in training elements from other military forces, especially now that the armies of, say, Iraq and Ukraine are in need for reform.

[Bacon King]

I am more or less satisfied with Bacon King's amendment and I would indeed sign the bill if passed by the Senate, but I wonder if we could amend Section 2. I understand the point of not training paramilitary personnel due to past experiences and they potential to be unreliable, but I think there's a legitimate point in training elements from other military forces, especially now that the armies of, say, Iraq and Ukraine are in need for reform.

The bill would still allow Atlasia to train foreign military personnel alongside our own people at our own Military Academies and other such training institutions. It also does not prohibit Atlasian military personnel from serving as instructors in a foreign military's own training facilities. I believe Section 2 is narrowly tailored to prohibit past abuses without preventing us from properly assisting our allies in any meaningful way.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Ugh - I thought I had voted on that amendment!

I would have voted AYE fwiw

[windjammer]

Well,
The senate has a long history of adopting crazy isolationnist foreign bills, I'm not sure this amendment is a good improvement.

[Bacon King]

Windjanmetl, please describe how this bill is in any way "crazy" or "isolationist"

[windjammer]

Windjanmetl, please describe how this bill is in any way "crazy" or "isolationist"

Well, I guess you're on phone?
I'm not speaking about your bill BK, I was speaking about some of these bills:
- https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/An_Actual_End_to_Imperialism_Act
-An another crazy bill that passed recently.

So U guess the senate risks to often put his "veto" against any of that.

[bore]

Are we ready for a final vote?

[Lumine]

Oh, I misread the bill, I withdraw my initial concern. On one side I worry about the potential for the Senate refusing to allow an administration to sell weapons out of spite, but on the other hand making it necessary for three Senators to protest previously creates a reasonable wall against that.

[Cranberry]

I motion for a final vote.

[TNF]

I object to the motion for a final vote.

[bore]

From the rules:

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If a final vote is still wanted this would need to be done:

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[Cranberry]

I just thought that we had talked about everything. But go on, TNF, debate what you want to see debated.

[TNF]

I debate the necessity of this repeal in the first place. There's nothing wrong with the Actual End to Imperialism Act as is.

[Lumine]

I debate the necessity of this repeal in the first place. There's nothing wrong with the Actual End to Imperialism Act as is.

If you choose to ignore how foreign policy works, that is. What the original act does is to make things harder for an administration that chooses to act on certain foreign policy issues and harm the Pentagon in the same way past cuts and hostile bills have, and if you look at other crucial moments of our history having this bill in place would have meant a disaster (the lend-lease example, which seems to have a broad consensus here).

The bottom line is that by being overtly idealistic and pretending we can go on without an army and a defense sector we are not going to achieve anything, and we will be at the complete mercy of events. Perhaps I am being a bit dramatic, but if we can to achieve an actual level of realism in this front (which is what I have tried to do for some time), this bill has to go.