Irish immersion

[Sol]

Well?

[politicus]

Yes.

[Deus Naturae]

What do you mean by "exclusively Irish Gaelic language teaching?" You mean this would be exclusive to Ireland? Or that it would only include Irish students? Or that it would only consist of Irish forms of Gaelic?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Horses, stable doors and so on.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Why?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Horses, stable doors and so on.

?

I.e. shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

[ingemann]

I voted yes, because it would be hilarious to see the reaction to it.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Such institutions already exist - they are called Gaelscoils (or rather, Gaelscoileanna). They are more widespread and successful than you might expect. But doesn't exactly mean they are closer to revitalizing gaeilge as the language of daily life.

[DC Al Fine]

No only Scots Gaelic should be taught in public schools dammit!

[ROIDRAGER#BB]

No only Scots Gaelic should be taught in public schools dammit!

Bro lift a weight.

[Indy Texas]

Maybe if they'd start spelling their words like sane people. It's no wonder the perfidious Britons subjugated them so easily with all that Caisreaghfoibaughmeach nonsense.

[Sol]

Maybe if they'd start spelling their words like sane people. It's no wonder the perfidious Britons subjugated them so easily with all that Caisreaghfoibaughmeach nonsense.

It's about as logical as English spelling IIRC.

[Simfan34]

No, because we don't speak Irish?

[Oakvale]

No, this would be a ridiculous policy. The language must be gently put down like a lame dog and its advocates driven into the sea.

Such institutions already exist - they are called Gaelscoils (or rather, Gaelscoileanna). They are more widespread and successful than you might expect. But doesn't exactly mean they are closer to revitalizing gaeilge as the language of daily life.

If by 'widespread and successful' you mean popular among parents who'd rather their children didn't associate with the lower classes and immigrant types in 'normal' schools then yes.

[Oakvale]

Maybe if they'd start spelling their words like sane people. It's no wonder the perfidious Britons subjugated them so easily with all that Caisreaghfoibaughmeach nonsense.

The correct spelling is actually "curry my yoghurt can coca coalyer".

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

No, this would be a ridiculous policy.

Agreed, but...

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...why? Why and under what circumstances is it acceptable to say that of any language? That's an incredibly, and definitionally, pernicious sentiment, in fact one for which I would have much stronger words than 'pernicious' except I don't want to be accused of excessive hyperbole or excessive SJW-ism.

[Oakvale]

No, this would be a ridiculous policy.

Agreed, but...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

...why? Why and under what circumstances is it acceptable to say that of any language? That's an incredibly, and definitionally, pernicious sentiment, in fact one for which I would have much stronger words than 'pernicious' except I don't want to be accused of excessive hyperbole or excessive SJW-ism.

When I say "advocates" I'm specifically referring to, well, the kind of people who send to their children to gaelscoils and have neatly redefined the concept of Irishness so that they are more Irish than anyone else by virtue of their keeping a dying (and irrelevant) language on life support.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This would be as logical and beneficial as if Italy started having schooling fully in Latin. Dead languages are dead.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No, this would be a ridiculous policy. The language must be gently put down like a lame dog and its advocates driven into the sea.

Such institutions already exist - they are called Gaelscoils (or rather, Gaelscoileanna). They are more widespread and successful than you might expect. But doesn't exactly mean they are closer to revitalizing gaeilge as the language of daily life.

If by 'widespread and successful' you mean popular among parents who'd rather their children didn't associate with the lower classes and immigrant types in 'normal' schools then yes.

That's true in some cases but isn't always the case... One of the fastest growing gaelscoil catchment areas has been in Ballymun....

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No, this would be a ridiculous policy.

Agreed, but...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

...why? Why and under what circumstances is it acceptable to say that of any language? That's an incredibly, and definitionally, pernicious sentiment, in fact one for which I would have much stronger words than 'pernicious' except I don't want to be accused of excessive hyperbole or excessive SJW-ism.

In Ireland the language has always been sold as the 'national language' with the implied nation being that of 'hard working, pious but essentially stupid peasants'. There has perhaps no more perfect example of this sort of pseudo-agrarian pseudo-populist romantic nationalism than that of Ireland, especially between the 1920s and 1950s when it was dominant state ideology. Needless to say, a lot of Irish people resent the implications...

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

No, this would be a ridiculous policy.

Agreed, but...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

...why? Why and under what circumstances is it acceptable to say that of any language? That's an incredibly, and definitionally, pernicious sentiment, in fact one for which I would have much stronger words than 'pernicious' except I don't want to be accused of excessive hyperbole or excessive SJW-ism.

In Ireland the language has always been sold as the 'national language' with the implied nation being that of 'hard working, pious but essentially stupid peasants'. There has perhaps no more perfect example of this sort of pseudo-agrarian pseudo-populist romantic nationalism than that of Ireland, especially between the 1920s and 1950s when it was dominant state ideology. Needless to say, a lot of Irish people resent the implications...

I understand the resentment and I'm aware of the problems that the use of the language as a shibboleth for that type of Irish nationalism has caused, but an expressed desire for a language to be semi-actively extirpated is never going to sit well with me. Personally, I believe that it's a moral act--not necessarily morally obligatory, but a moral act--to take steps to keep minority languages on life support for as long as possible. I see diversity of this or similar kinds as an intrinsically good thing, for reasons that are at heart theological, even though I know full well that the ways in which Ireland has chosen to do this and the cultural position and political implications that the Irish project holds are...dubious (id est yes, the idea that people's 'Irishness' is contingent on their level of participation in this project is both ridiculous and damaging).

Of course, I'm not Irish and my position on this is certainly not that of an expert in linguistics, nation-building, or even really sociology.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No, this would be a ridiculous policy.

Agreed, but...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

...why? Why and under what circumstances is it acceptable to say that of any language? That's an incredibly, and definitionally, pernicious sentiment, in fact one for which I would have much stronger words than 'pernicious' except I don't want to be accused of excessive hyperbole or excessive SJW-ism.

In Ireland the language has always been sold as the 'national language' with the implied nation being that of 'hard working, pious but essentially stupid peasants'. There has perhaps no more perfect example of this sort of pseudo-agrarian pseudo-populist romantic nationalism than that of Ireland, especially between the 1920s and 1950s when it was dominant state ideology. Needless to say, a lot of Irish people resent the implications...

I understand the resentment and I'm aware of the problems that the use of the language as a shibboleth for that type of Irish nationalism has caused, but an expressed desire for a language to be semi-actively extirpated is never going to sit well with me. Personally, I believe that it's a moral act--not necessarily morally obligatory, but a moral act--to take steps to keep minority languages on life support for as long as possible. I see diversity of this or similar kinds as an intrinsically good thing, for reasons that are at heart theological, even though I know full well that the ways in which Ireland has chosen to do this and the cultural position and political implications that the Irish project holds are...dubious (id est yes, the idea that people's 'Irishness' is contingent on their level of participation in this project is both ridiculous and damaging).

Of course, I'm not Irish and my position on this is certainly not that of an expert in linguistics, nation-building, or even really sociology.

The position is understandable and I have great sympathy towards the idea of the language movement and linguistic diversity - I'm too much of a cultural romantic despite myself to want the language to be culled or 'put out of its misery' - but what has to be acknowledged is the complete indifference of the most of the population towards the language except in highly tokenistic ways. Not only that but the Irish language movement pleas are for, in effect, more government money to be spent on Irish speaking areas even if this Irish speaking is now only nominal or inscribed-in-law only. I mean, their recent protest was on the inability to find a lot of government services in Irish even though when they are on offer evidence suggests they are barely used... but it's a great way to employ Irish speakers... so the cynicism is... understandable. In reality what else can be said has been said by Al. Irish independence happened a century too late to save the language from anything other than utter marginality.

[politicus]

Irish independence happened a century too late to save the language from anything other than utter marginality.

The victorious nationalists never made a full commitment to the language cause, it was always very half hearted and symbolic. If they had gone all in during the 20s and 30s and de facto made Irish the sole official language of their new nation state there would have been a (slim) chance.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Irish independence happened a century too late to save the language from anything other than utter marginality.

The victorious nationalists never made a full commitment to the language cause, it was always very half hearted and symbolic. If they had gone all in with in the 20s and 30s and de facto mad Irish the sole official language of their new nation state there would have been a (slim) chance.

This would have meant, in effect, firing and replacing the whole root and branch of the civil service (which went mostly unchanged after independence) and the professions, including teachers, in the name of linguistic preference. This would have been a massively unpopular policy whose main obvious goal would be convincing the skeptics that the Irish free state was a plot to transform Ireland into a Gaelic, Catholic, Romantic nationalist state... and for what?

But no, you repeat hoary nationalist tropes that a moment's reflection would have revealed the fallacy. As it happened the Irish Free State cut funding for many areas on the Irish west coast where Irish was spoken because it could no longer afford the expense that the British state put into it.

[traininthedistance]

The substance of oakvale's criticism of these folks is actually by and large quite correct, but– and I realize that saying this out loud will probably brand me as a soft-brained ubersentitive SJW or something, but what-the-f**k-ever– I cannot think of a case where that sort of "drive 'em into the sea!" rhetoric is really ever appropriate or even funny.  And even if there was such a case, it certainly wouldn't be this.