"Holiday tree"

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Okay I don't really have any opinion on the actual subject of this thread but there are two assertions in Snowguy's post, other than the one that ingemann covered.

1. While it's more or less indisputably true that the word 'Easter' derives from the name of a pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess (even Bede admits this), Sumerian isn't even an Indo-European language, so the 'Ishtar' connection is almost certainly a false cognate. It's also worth noting that this is only true of a few of the Germanic languages--other languages have words for Easter related to Pesach.
2. That is most certainly not true of 'all' or even most patron saints. It's notably truer in some places (e.g. Ireland, where that was done to a significant chunk of the Druidic pantheon) than in others (e.g. the Mediterranean basin, which has from a very early date had more than enough legit Christian historical or semi-historical figures to go around.)

Ishtar/Astarte is actually Semitic. The Sumerian name is Inanna. Your point about the difficulty of finding a plausible etymological connection remains though.

[Vosem]

Because sometimes it's not a Christmas tree? In Russia, trees are typically put up to celebrate not Christmas, but rather the New Years' Eve/Day celebrations, and back when my family did put up a tree (when I was very young; we stopped a decade or so ago) it was part of the New Years' celebration, not (as some might think) Christmas or (as some cleverer people might think) Hanukkah.

[badgate]

Who says this?

Patriots.

[user12345]

Why is it such a big deal what we call it? Enjoy the season and stop bickering over names for a tree.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Okay I don't really have any opinion on the actual subject of this thread but there are two assertions in Snowguy's post, other than the one that ingemann covered, that I want to address.

1. While it's more or less indisputably true that the word 'Easter' derives from the name of a pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess (even Bede admits this), Sumerian isn't even an Indo-European language, so the 'Ishtar' connection is almost certainly a false cognate. It's also worth noting that this is only true of a few of the Germanic languages--other languages have words for Easter related to Pesach.
2. That is most certainly not true of 'all' or even most patron saints. It's notably truer in some places (e.g. Ireland, where that was done to a significant chunk of the Druidic pantheon) than in others (e.g. the Mediterranean basin, which has from a very early date had more than enough legit Christian historical or semi-historical figures to go around.)

What is your point here?  I never said Easter came from Ishtar.  I said Ishtar, a Babylonian goddess of fertility, sounds remarkably like Easter, a Name attributed to a relatively unknown goddess of the dawn who presides over a holiday that celebrated fertility and rebirth.  A mere curiosity.  Of course I really doubt the pagan germanic gods just evolved out of nowhere.  There wiuld have been influences, perhaps from the areas where civilization first began?  I have no proof...just speculation.

And while ingemann is right that the fir tree was a replacement for the oak that was meant to represent the trinity, why have a tree at all?

The point is.... These were Christian replacements for pagan practices.  Just like holiday trees and getting together and celebrating secularly is a modern replacement, using many of the same props in a very similar process, of Christianity.

This has been happening forever.  If you want to be holier than me and spar over details in a big blow out of fecal pompousness, go right ahead.  Just don't twist my words against me.

[pbrower2a]

Putting up a 'holiday' tree is very American. Having ornaments that look like menorahs and Stars of David makes sense if one is Jewish. Interesting use for the old Tannenbaum, right?

[ingemann]

Okay I don't really have any opinion on the actual subject of this thread but there are two assertions in Snowguy's post, other than the one that ingemann covered, that I want to address.

1. While it's more or less indisputably true that the word 'Easter' derives from the name of a pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess (even Bede admits this), Sumerian isn't even an Indo-European language, so the 'Ishtar' connection is almost certainly a false cognate. It's also worth noting that this is only true of a few of the Germanic languages--other languages have words for Easter related to Pesach.
2. That is most certainly not true of 'all' or even most patron saints. It's notably truer in some places (e.g. Ireland, where that was done to a significant chunk of the Druidic pantheon) than in others (e.g. the Mediterranean basin, which has from a very early date had more than enough legit Christian historical or semi-historical figures to go around.)

What is your point here?  I never said Easter came from Ishtar.  I said Ishtar, a Babylonian goddess of fertility, sounds remarkably like Easter, a Name attributed to a relatively unknown goddess of the dawn who presides over a holiday that celebrated fertility and rebirth.  A mere curiosity.  Of course I really doubt the pagan germanic gods just evolved out of nowhere.  There wiuld have been influences, perhaps from the areas where civilization first began?  I have no proof...just speculation.

And while ingemann is right that the fir tree was a replacement for the oak that was meant to represent the trinity, why have a tree at all?

The point is.... These were Christian replacements for pagan practices.  Just like holiday trees and getting together and celebrating secularly is a modern replacement, using many of the same props in a very similar process, of Christianity.

This has been happening forever.  If you want to be holier than me and spar over details in a big blow out of fecal pompousness, go right ahead.  Just don't twist my words against me.

The Christmas tree was and is not connected with the pagan oak or ask, first of all the Christmas tree is developed in a area which have not been pagan for millenium, second the winter solstice was not connected with these trees in pagan rituals, but with feasting, sacrifices to the fey and the ancestors and the Wild Hunt. Third when something was hanged on these trees it was not candle light and gifts, but human and animal who was sacrifised to Odin/Woten through hangings (as he was the hanged god).

Just because Christmas is a pagan holiday, it doesn't mean the ritual we use at Christmas have pagan origins, through some myths connected with Christmas like the Wandering Jew is thinly disguised pagan myths adapted into a Christian context.

[ingemann]

Putting up a 'holiday' tree is very American. Having ornaments that look like menorahs and Stars of David makes sense if one is Jewish. Interesting use for the old Tannenbaum, right?

I honestly don't have a problem with it, it just seem a little ridiculous, I as example call Christmas with the pagan name "Jul", but that doesn't mean that I don't primary connect it with the birth of Christ. In the same way it seem rather weird why English speaking people can't just call it Christmas Tree, even if they're not Christian, it seem a little Orwellian in my opinion, to try to remove all connection to what the traditions have had in two centuries with some kind of PC newspeak.

[Joe Republic]

Which bible verse describes the reason for decorating a pine tree again?  I forget.

[ingemann]

Which bible verse describes the reason for decorating a pine tree again?  I forget.

We can't all be 19th Century Awakening Christians, some of us believe in the verbal tradition.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Okay I don't really have any opinion on the actual subject of this thread but there are two assertions in Snowguy's post, other than the one that ingemann covered, that I want to address.

1. While it's more or less indisputably true that the word 'Easter' derives from the name of a pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess (even Bede admits this), Sumerian isn't even an Indo-European language, so the 'Ishtar' connection is almost certainly a false cognate. It's also worth noting that this is only true of a few of the Germanic languages--other languages have words for Easter related to Pesach.
2. That is most certainly not true of 'all' or even most patron saints. It's notably truer in some places (e.g. Ireland, where that was done to a significant chunk of the Druidic pantheon) than in others (e.g. the Mediterranean basin, which has from a very early date had more than enough legit Christian historical or semi-historical figures to go around.)

What is your point here?  I never said Easter came from Ishtar.  I said Ishtar, a Babylonian goddess of fertility, sounds remarkably like Easter, a Name attributed to a relatively unknown goddess of the dawn who presides over a holiday that celebrated fertility and rebirth.  A mere curiosity.  Of course I really doubt the pagan germanic gods just evolved out of nowhere.  There wiuld have been influences, perhaps from the areas where civilization first began?  I have no proof...just speculation.

And while ingemann is right that the fir tree was a replacement for the oak that was meant to represent the trinity, why have a tree at all?

The point is.... These were Christian replacements for pagan practices.  Just like holiday trees and getting together and celebrating secularly is a modern replacement, using many of the same props in a very similar process, of Christianity.

This has been happening forever.  If you want to be holier than me and spar over details in a big blow out of fecal pompousness, go right ahead.  Just don't twist my words against me.

The Christmas tree was and is not connected with the pagan oak or ask, first of all the Christmas tree is developed in a area which have not been pagan for millenium, second the winter solstice was not connected with these trees in pagan rituals, but with feasting, sacrifices to the fey and the ancestors and the Wild Hunt. Third when something was hanged on these trees it was not candle light and gifts, but human and animal who was sacrifised to Odin/Woten through hangings (as he was the hanged god).

Just because Christmas is a pagan holiday, it doesn't mean the ritual we use at Christmas have pagan origins, through some myths connected with Christmas like the Wandering Jew is thinly disguised pagan myths adapted into a Christian context.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter...but even a cursory glance at the wikipedia article for Christmas trees would inform you of the story of St. Boniface cutting down Donar's oak and replacing it with an evergreen fir, because it is triangle shaped and is a reminder of the trinity.

A bit further down it talks of Scandinavian remnants of tree worship by decorating the farmstead with evergreens to scare away the devil.  Which verse in the book of Luke mentions sprucing up the house to scare off Satan? 

Your assertion that the Christmas tree is a purely Christian tradition is ludicrous.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What is your point here?  I never said Easter came from Ishtar.  I said Ishtar, a Babylonian goddess of fertility, sounds remarkably like Easter, a Name attributed to a relatively unknown goddess of the dawn who presides over a holiday that celebrated fertility and rebirth.  A mere curiosity.  Of course I really doubt the pagan germanic gods just evolved out of nowhere.  There wiuld have been influences, perhaps from the areas where civilization first began?  I have no proof...just speculation.

Okay, it sounded to me like you were positing a connection, but if you weren't trying to do that then my mistake, sorry.

Okay I don't really have any opinion on the actual subject of this thread but there are two assertions in Snowguy's post, other than the one that ingemann covered, that I want to address.

1. While it's more or less indisputably true that the word 'Easter' derives from the name of a pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess (even Bede admits this), Sumerian isn't even an Indo-European language, so the 'Ishtar' connection is almost certainly a false cognate. It's also worth noting that this is only true of a few of the Germanic languages--other languages have words for Easter related to Pesach.
2. That is most certainly not true of 'all' or even most patron saints. It's notably truer in some places (e.g. Ireland, where that was done to a significant chunk of the Druidic pantheon) than in others (e.g. the Mediterranean basin, which has from a very early date had more than enough legit Christian historical or semi-historical figures to go around.)

What is your point here?  I never said Easter came from Ishtar.  I said Ishtar, a Babylonian goddess of fertility, sounds remarkably like Easter, a Name attributed to a relatively unknown goddess of the dawn who presides over a holiday that celebrated fertility and rebirth.  A mere curiosity.  Of course I really doubt the pagan germanic gods just evolved out of nowhere.  There wiuld have been influences, perhaps from the areas where civilization first began?  I have no proof...just speculation.

And while ingemann is right that the fir tree was a replacement for the oak that was meant to represent the trinity, why have a tree at all?

The point is.... These were Christian replacements for pagan practices.  Just like holiday trees and getting together and celebrating secularly is a modern replacement, using many of the same props in a very similar process, of Christianity.

This has been happening forever.  If you want to be holier than me and spar over details in a big blow out of fecal pompousness, go right ahead.  Just don't twist my words against me.

The Christmas tree was and is not connected with the pagan oak or ask, first of all the Christmas tree is developed in a area which have not been pagan for millenium, second the winter solstice was not connected with these trees in pagan rituals, but with feasting, sacrifices to the fey and the ancestors and the Wild Hunt. Third when something was hanged on these trees it was not candle light and gifts, but human and animal who was sacrifised to Odin/Woten through hangings (as he was the hanged god).

Just because Christmas is a pagan holiday, it doesn't mean the ritual we use at Christmas have pagan origins, through some myths connected with Christmas like the Wandering Jew is thinly disguised pagan myths adapted into a Christian context.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter...but even a cursory glance at the wikipedia article for Christmas trees would inform you of the story of St. Boniface cutting down Donar's oak and replacing it with an evergreen fir, because it is triangle shaped and is a reminder of the trinity.

A bit further down it talks of Scandinavian remnants of tree worship by decorating the farmstead with evergreens to scare away the devil.  Which verse in the book of Luke mentions sprucing up the house to scare off Satan? 

Your assertion that the Christmas tree is a purely Christian tradition is ludicrous.

I don't know, a symbol that originated as a direct and deliberate replacement, as opposed to co-option, of a pagan symbol seems about as Christian as it gets to me.

The demand for Biblical proof-texting to consider a tradition 'Christian' is, of course, painfully Protestant-specific.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Funnily enough... Martin Luther is thought to have originated the Christmas tree tradition in modern tradition. 

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I'm saying that it's A Protestant Thing but I'm not claiming that it's the only possible type of Protestant Thing or the only attitude that Protestants have. That would be an absurd assertion.

[ingemann]

I'm saying that it's A Protestant Thing but I'm not claiming that it's the only possible type of Protestant Thing or the only attitude that Protestants have. That would be an absurd assertion.

It's a thing among a small segment among protestants and it's in fact almost non existent among European protestants, so when people ask me for a Bible verse for Christian traditions, which have developed in the two milleniums after the birth of Christ, not only is it meaningless in my opinion, it also lower my opinion of the person.

[ingemann]

Okay I don't really have any opinion on the actual subject of this thread but there are two assertions in Snowguy's post, other than the one that ingemann covered, that I want to address.

1. While it's more or less indisputably true that the word 'Easter' derives from the name of a pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess (even Bede admits this), Sumerian isn't even an Indo-European language, so the 'Ishtar' connection is almost certainly a false cognate. It's also worth noting that this is only true of a few of the Germanic languages--other languages have words for Easter related to Pesach.
2. That is most certainly not true of 'all' or even most patron saints. It's notably truer in some places (e.g. Ireland, where that was done to a significant chunk of the Druidic pantheon) than in others (e.g. the Mediterranean basin, which has from a very early date had more than enough legit Christian historical or semi-historical figures to go around.)

What is your point here?  I never said Easter came from Ishtar.  I said Ishtar, a Babylonian goddess of fertility, sounds remarkably like Easter, a Name attributed to a relatively unknown goddess of the dawn who presides over a holiday that celebrated fertility and rebirth.  A mere curiosity.  Of course I really doubt the pagan germanic gods just evolved out of nowhere.  There wiuld have been influences, perhaps from the areas where civilization first began?  I have no proof...just speculation.

And while ingemann is right that the fir tree was a replacement for the oak that was meant to represent the trinity, why have a tree at all?

The point is.... These were Christian replacements for pagan practices.  Just like holiday trees and getting together and celebrating secularly is a modern replacement, using many of the same props in a very similar process, of Christianity.

This has been happening forever.  If you want to be holier than me and spar over details in a big blow out of fecal pompousness, go right ahead.  Just don't twist my words against me.

The Christmas tree was and is not connected with the pagan oak or ask, first of all the Christmas tree is developed in a area which have not been pagan for millenium, second the winter solstice was not connected with these trees in pagan rituals, but with feasting, sacrifices to the fey and the ancestors and the Wild Hunt. Third when something was hanged on these trees it was not candle light and gifts, but human and animal who was sacrifised to Odin/Woten through hangings (as he was the hanged god).

Just because Christmas is a pagan holiday, it doesn't mean the ritual we use at Christmas have pagan origins, through some myths connected with Christmas like the Wandering Jew is thinly disguised pagan myths adapted into a Christian context.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter...but even a cursory glance at the wikipedia article for Christmas trees would inform you of the story of St. Boniface cutting down Donar's oak and replacing it with an evergreen fir, because it is triangle shaped and is a reminder of the trinity.

A bit further down it talks of Scandinavian remnants of tree worship by decorating the farmstead with evergreens to scare away the devil.  Which verse in the book of Luke mentions sprucing up the house to scare off Satan? 

Your assertion that the Christmas tree is a purely Christian tradition is ludicrous.

Evergreens was and is primary used at Easter to symbolise the palm leaves when Jesus entered Jerusalem, which was how the connection between evergreens and Jesus was created. As for the history of the Christmas Tree, we know precisely the year when the first Christmas Tree was seen in Scandinavia, 1808 on Holsteinborg at Skelskør. It's funny how Scandinavia where Germanic Paganism survived the longest didn't have this "ancient ritual of paganism" before.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I don't really care if people choose to use the wrong names for things. I still know they're wrong, and that's good enough for me.

[ag]

I, actually, put the tree up for the New Year. The only reason I have to put it up before Christmas is that otherwise one cannot get one. Which, BTW, is a pity: besides the atheist Jews like myself there are the Russian - and some other - Orthodox Christians, Armenians, etc., who celebrate Christmas after Jan. 1 - and Russians traditionally have it up till, at least, Jan. 14 (Jan. 1 on the Julian calendar), so the later one gets it, the less bad it looks by mid Jan. I often don't even get to decorate it till after Christmas, though. I do not mind calling it a Christmas Tree in English - except that it, most definitely, is not one in my house.

[memphis]

Okay I don't really have any opinion on the actual subject of this thread but there are two assertions in Snowguy's post, other than the one that ingemann covered, that I want to address.

1. While it's more or less indisputably true that the word 'Easter' derives from the name of a pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess (even Bede admits this), Sumerian isn't even an Indo-European language, so the 'Ishtar' connection is almost certainly a false cognate. It's also worth noting that this is only true of a few of the Germanic languages--other languages have words for Easter related to Pesach.
2. That is most certainly not true of 'all' or even most patron saints. It's notably truer in some places (e.g. Ireland, where that was done to a significant chunk of the Druidic pantheon) than in others (e.g. the Mediterranean basin, which has from a very early date had more than enough legit Christian historical or semi-historical figures to go around.)

What is your point here?  I never said Easter came from Ishtar.  I said Ishtar, a Babylonian goddess of fertility, sounds remarkably like Easter, a Name attributed to a relatively unknown goddess of the dawn who presides over a holiday that celebrated fertility and rebirth.  A mere curiosity.  Of course I really doubt the pagan germanic gods just evolved out of nowhere.  There wiuld have been influences, perhaps from the areas where civilization first began?  I have no proof...just speculation.

And while ingemann is right that the fir tree was a replacement for the oak that was meant to represent the trinity, why have a tree at all?

The point is.... These were Christian replacements for pagan practices.  Just like holiday trees and getting together and celebrating secularly is a modern replacement, using many of the same props in a very similar process, of Christianity.

This has been happening forever.  If you want to be holier than me and spar over details in a big blow out of fecal pompousness, go right ahead.  Just don't twist my words against me.

There is a speculative argument to be made that the Germanic languages (of which English is, of course, one) were influenced by Semitic traders. John McWhorter outlines this hypothesis, with some evidence to support it, in the final chapter of his book Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue, though even he points out that the case is far from conclusive. It's a good read and a brief one too if anybody is interested in the history of the language.

[CountryClassSF]

Whenever someone wishes me a "Happy Holidays," I always make sure I tell them MERRY CHRISTMAS in a stern voice.  I do not wish for them to inflict their political correctness agenda on me and my country and my culture. It's offensive to me. I don't even take Happy Holidays folks seriously, because it's done to try to intimidate Christians or even secular Christmas celebrants.

I have seen the term "holiday tree," "holiday cookies,"  GAG---I mean really??   It's political correctness run amok. OP has it right.

[afleitch]

Whenever someone wishes me a "Happy Holidays," I always make sure I tell them MERRY CHRISTMAS in a stern voice.  I do not wish for them to inflict their political correctness agenda on me and my country and my culture. It's offensive to me. I don't even take Happy Holidays folks seriously, because it's done to try to intimidate Christians or even secular Christmas celebrants.

I have seen the term "holiday tree," "holiday cookies,"  GAG---I mean really??   It's political correctness run amok. OP has it right.

That's a c-nty thing to do. It would be like me taking offence at someone wishing me a Merry Christmas despite not being Christian.

[SteveRogers]

Whenever someone wishes me a "Happy Holidays," I always make sure I tell them MERRY CHRISTMAS in a stern voice.  I do not wish for them to inflict their political correctness agenda on me and my country and my culture. It's offensive to me. I don't even take Happy Holidays folks seriously, because it's done to try to intimidate Christians or even secular Christmas celebrants.

I have seen the term "holiday tree," "holiday cookies,"  GAG---I mean really??   It's political correctness run amok. OP has it right.

If that's all it takes to offend you, the rest of life is going to be really, really hard for you.

[The Arizonan]

Whenever someone wishes me a "Happy Holidays," I always make sure I tell them MERRY CHRISTMAS in a stern voice.  I do not wish for them to inflict their political correctness agenda on me and my country and my culture. It's offensive to me. I don't even take Happy Holidays folks seriously, because it's done to try to intimidate Christians or even secular Christmas celebrants.

I have seen the term "holiday tree," "holiday cookies,"  GAG---I mean really??   It's political correctness run amok. OP has it right.

I definitely agree with you regarding the second paragraph. Political correctness has gone berserk.

As for the first paragraph, it's best to use "happy holidays" as the default greeting if you work in customer service or if you're in public because you might not actually know what the person celebrates.

If you're in a room full of people that celebrate Christmas or if you're greeting a bunch of relatives who celebrate it, don't be afraid of saying "Merry Christmas".

What is annoying are people that insist on always saying "happy holidays" even if you're saying "Merry Christmas" to your own mother in, say, New York City.

And can we address how some people are trying to replace "snowman" with "snowperson" in the English language? The English language wasn't built to be politically correct. Get over it.

[Edu]

Who the hell cares what christmas is called?  is anyone actually been persecuted just because they called the celebrations one way or the other?

Here we say Feliz Navidad (Merry Christmas) and Felices Fiestas (happy holidays) and I haven't encountered anyone who wold complain about the distinction.

Heck, I said both of those phrases yesterday.

I haven't met a lot of people that complain about this. Is this stupidity only an american thing or I'm living in a bubble?

[Joe Republic]

Is this stupidity only an american thing or I'm living in a bubble?

The former.