Recall Amendment (Passed)
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  Recall Amendment (Passed)
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Author Topic: Recall Amendment (Passed)  (Read 3154 times)
bore
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« on: December 17, 2014, 07:50:27 PM »
« edited: January 16, 2015, 01:27:38 PM by Senator bore »

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Sponsor: TNF
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 09:22:06 PM »

Wait....

So, correct me please if I'm wrong... I think this thing needs some commas.

But if an official has 25% of registered voters petition for a recall, and if more people vote for the recall, than voted for the official in the first instance, provided it is more than 25% of registered voters, then they're recalled?

I think there would be a significant equity issue for people who were elected, say, before a large population influx. Let's say...

Candidate A - gets 13 votes
Candidate B - gets 9 votes
... total registered voters - 29 = turnout 22/29 = 72.4%

In the proceeding months there's an influx of say 5 new voters. Increasing the registered voter numbers to 34.

A recall petition is started, say... 10 people sign - that's 29.4% of registered voters.

In the ballot for recall
Yes gets 15
No gets 16

That's 15/34 = 44.1%of registered voters voted for the recall and in raw numbers, greater than those who voted for Candidate A in the first election- but 51.6% of voters, voted against the recall...

Clearly Senator TNF has some specific scenarios he wishes to address with this... or he wishes to clarify the mechanism, I don't think this is an especially fair process.

Let alone my personal distaste for loading our Constitution up with stuff like this.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 09:45:44 PM »
« Edited: December 17, 2014, 09:56:42 PM by Bacon King »

edit- I left the page open for a while before posting so I didn't see polnut posted above me so he might also have concerns like mine

I like the idea, but my concerns:

A. Some (all?) regions already have a way to recall their elected officials. This amendment should explicitly state either that existing regional recall procedures are replaced by this process, or that this process shall only occur on the regional level in regions that don't have recall elections. Otherwise it'd be very confusing to have two competing recall procedures in existence at the regional level.
B. I don't like the requirements in Section 2 because it allows for the possibility of someone getting recalled even if a majority vote against the recall. Also the way it's set up there's no reason to vote against a recall: if you're opposed to a recall it's better to just not vote, in an attempt to keep turnout below 25%, because the election itself is just determined if there are enough voters in favor of the recall.
C. I don't like the requirement that it has to be on a specific day of the month. Why not just have the recall occur the weekend after the SOFE certifies the petition?
D. I'd prefer if this was specifically added to some portion of the Constitution proper, because standalone amendments are really difficult to notice given the constitution's setup on the wiki

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TNF
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 09:35:44 AM »

I'm fine with changing what needs to be changed in order to get this ratified.

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windjammer
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 05:56:34 AM »

I will not vote for it.
At large elections allow people with not mainstream views: Deus, JCL to be elected. The recall would likely recall them both.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 05:20:43 PM »

Is there even a constitutional mandate for the Senate to force this bill on to the regional level?
But even so, as Polnut showed us, that system is a bit weird... I would just say, the guy needs 55% and at least 25% of the last election's turnout, to be recalled?

But I like the prospect of recalling in theory, so I will probably support this. But maybe we could make an exception for President and Vice President?
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 01:11:47 AM »

Again, I'd like to ask Senator TNF to advocate for this Bill. Why this mechanism is required etc etc.
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TNF
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 10:03:24 AM »

Voters should be able to recall any elected official they like. It's pretty straightforward.
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Lumine
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 08:20:52 PM »

Wouldn't this be used as an excuse to get rid of officeholders we simply don't like? One thing is to have more transparency and accountablility for public servants, but this has the clear potential to go too far, not to mention it would enable people to pretty much destroy the At-Large Senators.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 09:57:41 PM »

For reasons stated by Senator Windjammer, I hope the Senate rejects this amendment unless we apply it only to the President and Vice President.

Because of the way at-large senators are elected, whichever side (left or right) has more voters could easily recall those on the other side and replace them with their own, creating a 5-0 majority one way, which would not be an accurate reflection on the population at-large.
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bore
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2014, 07:38:20 AM »

Perhaps we could have a recall for regional senators and the president/ vice president, but only if a majority of the voters in the last election want one.

So say Polnut won a regional seat against Deus, like this:

Polnut: A, B, C, D

Deus: E,F,G

then for polnut to be recalled a majority of the people A, B, C, D, E, F, G would have to want it.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2014, 10:25:07 AM »

But is it in our authority to make laws regarding the recalls of regional senators? Shouldn't that better be left to the regions?
Also, I echo the comments made why recall of individual at-large Senators is not that good an idea.
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TNF
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2014, 10:25:39 AM »

For reasons stated by Senator Windjammer, I hope the Senate rejects this amendment unless we apply it only to the President and Vice President.

Because of the way at-large senators are elected, whichever side (left or right) has more voters could easily recall those on the other side and replace them with their own, creating a 5-0 majority one way, which would not be an accurate reflection on the population at-large.

No one asked for your input.
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windjammer
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2014, 12:40:55 PM »


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The only situation where I could back it
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2014, 05:01:55 PM »


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The only situation where I could back it


100% of registered voters? Really?
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2014, 05:11:35 PM »

For reasons stated by Senator Windjammer, I hope the Senate rejects this amendment unless we apply it only to the President and Vice President.

Because of the way at-large senators are elected, whichever side (left or right) has more voters could easily recall those on the other side and replace them with their own, creating a 5-0 majority one way, which would not be an accurate reflection on the population at-large.

No one asked for your input.
My understanding was that citizens were allowed to give input in Senate debate threads. If that is no longer the case, I ask that PPT Bore or Dean Yankee let me know and I won't interrupt again.
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bore
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2014, 07:25:55 PM »

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Proposed by: Windjammer

Senators have 36 hours to object to this amendment
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2014, 07:42:17 PM »

Yes - 100% would make recalls virtually impossible. Plus section 2 has some wording issues, "provided that a number voters equal to or greater than 100% of registered voters".

I'd be interested to know why Senator Windjammer is proposing this.
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TNF
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2014, 09:18:39 PM »

Amendment is unfriendly.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2014, 09:09:16 AM »

For reasons stated by Senator Windjammer, I hope the Senate rejects this amendment unless we apply it only to the President and Vice President.

Because of the way at-large senators are elected, whichever side (left or right) has more voters could easily recall those on the other side and replace them with their own, creating a 5-0 majority one way, which would not be an accurate reflection on the population at-large.

No one asked for your input.
My understanding was that citizens were allowed to give input in Senate debate threads. If that is no longer the case, I ask that PPT Bore or Dean Yankee let me know and I won't interrupt again.

It is of course not, you just proved a good point against TNF's standpoint, that's all.
Rest assured that at least from my side, and I am sure, from the great majority of Senators, a citizen's input is always greatly appreciated.
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windjammer
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2014, 12:24:07 PM »

Yes - 100% would make recalls virtually impossible. Plus section 2 has some wording issues, "provided that a number voters equal to or greater than 100% of registered voters".

I'd be interested to know why Senator Windjammer is proposing this.
I know this seems to be a joke, but that's not the case. After some talks with a member of your party, I realize that would be a good proposal. Indeed:
1) I will quote the great member of your party, an analysis I share as well: 
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2) With this proposal, the only case case it could happen would be when the representative himself would vote in favour of this removal. The only way I might support it. Except disgusting behaviours (where he would be impeached), an unpopular representative should be able to stay in office until he wants himself to be recalled/removed from office.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2014, 03:35:56 AM »

Senator, this has nothing to do with members of my party. As with you, I am more than a member of the TPP. I disagree with members of my party, no matter how much I respect them. It's actually something we pride ourselves on.

Nor do I think of this a joke, as I'd hope you wouldn't present something you'd consider a joke.

I don't support a system of recall that would allow recalls by whim, but at the same time IF we are to have a system for recall, then it cannot be completely impossible. Taking unpopular decisions is an element of leadership, not only making them, but being prepared to.

Putting in a system that requires every, single voter (whether they voted or not) to agree - which is the reverse issue that you raised of a leader making a difficult decision - to put in place a situation where a leader acting inappropriately (short of criminal) would be kept on by the will of a tiny set of voters.

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bore
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2014, 08:34:04 AM »

Senators a vote is now open on windjammer's amendment please vote aye nay or abstain
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Cranberry
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2014, 09:26:54 AM »

Nay

100% would also always include the person in question, so everyone of my colleagues can think how likely a recall would be to pass in this scenario.
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windjammer
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2014, 11:16:10 AM »
« Edited: December 23, 2014, 11:17:42 AM by Mideast Senator windjammer »

Senator, this has nothing to do with members of my party. As with you, I am more than a member of the TPP. I disagree with members of my party, no matter how much I respect them. It's actually something we pride ourselves on.

Nor do I think of this a joke, as I'd hope you wouldn't present something you'd consider a joke.

I don't support a system of recall that would allow recalls by whim, but at the same time IF we are to have a system for recall, then it cannot be completely impossible. Taking unpopular decisions is an element of leadership, not only making them, but being prepared to.

Putting in a system that requires every, single voter (whether they voted or not) to agree - which is the reverse issue that you raised of a leader making a difficult decision - to put in place a situation where a leader acting inappropriately (short of criminal) would be kept on by the will of a tiny set of voters.



Oh don't worry, this has nothing to do with your party. It's just I didn't want to reveal the guy I talked recently because I don't want to have poblems with the moderators, so I have just said "member of yuour party", nothing more Tongue.

This is simple, the idea of recalling individuals is silly and I"m saddened to see it will probably pass the senate.
My amendment would make sure my vision of what should a representative be: even unpopular, this is his decision to retire or not, and at the same time letting the idea of recall pass, that would be symbolical, indeed, but I believe this is a fair compromise.
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