NYPD officers shot dead as "revenge" for Garner decision.

[Beet]

Another instance of gun-assisted domestic violence with fatal consequences, the gf was probably the main target and then he decided to do the other thing since his life was already over.

[Beet]

Well, police deserve respect as human beings, just as all humans deserve respect. You're a little too "sage" for your own argument tweed... not everyone can be loved. Leave that up to Jesus. Human love is something that is in precious quantity... we can only apportion it out one at a time. Respect, on the other hand, is something that can be delivered.

The evidence in the Michael Brown situation is conflicting at best. The sports team shouldn't be taking a side there.

[Beet]

the concept of "respect" in the cop context is not of your universal cry, "all humans deserve respect."  I've no objection to that -- that's simply the absence of sociopathy, not a high bar to clear.  

...

all that can be concluded from this is that "respect the cops" in practice means to treat them as more important, more virtuous men than those they supposedly serve -- and Lord have mercy on you if you grieve for one of the unpeople, subhumans who die at the hands of the cops.

That's true, the police don't deserve veneration solely by being police. That's an attitude that certainly exists out there and it's stupid. Unfortunately the policing profession often attracts unsubtle people so the police unions' bullying attempts aren't surprising.

[Beet]

Remember back to Gabby Giffords shooting and how the discourse was arguing over whether The Rhetoric had lead to her shooting. Sure, they argued, one man pulled the trigger but clearly it was the right-wing environment of hate which really it did. Of course, most conservatives denied this attempt to label cuplability on them and the smarter ones dismisses this as a classic leftie wishie-washie sociological determinism to attack things they don't like.

Yet apparently now some of these same pundits are looking at the actions of individuals and seeing the long arm of society at work. We are no longer individuals. Who knew.

The difference is that Jared Loughner wasn't a member of a militia group and never connected his act to any larger political cause. All he had were some rambling and incoherent YouTube videos, IIRC.

[Beet]

You guys are forgetting the most critical point: this would not have happened if their were good guys with guns to save these police officers.

Wow. Doesn't get more low class than that. This guy snuck up behind the officers.

Actually it's a pretty stark and unanswerable counter to the notion that more guns is the solution to gun violence.

[Beet]

You guys are forgetting the most critical point: this would not have happened if their were good guys with guns to save these police officers.

Wow. Doesn't get more low class than that. This guy snuck up behind the officers.

Actually it's a pretty stark and unanswerable counter to the notion that more guns is the solution to gun violence.

How, exactly?

We'll because the officers had guns, but they're still dead.

[Beet]

You guys are forgetting the most critical point: this would not have happened if their were good guys with guns to save these police officers.

Wow. Doesn't get more low class than that. This guy snuck up behind the officers.

Actually it's a pretty stark and unanswerable counter to the notion that more guns is the solution to gun violence.

How, exactly?

We'll because the officers had guns, but they're still dead.

That's because the guy walked up to the car window. There are tons (probably hundreds) of examples of people defending themselves with guns, but because one time they weren't able to it's "stark and unanswerable" proof that guns don't help people defend themselves?

The argument from the pro gun side isn't that guns can sometimes help someone in some situations. It's that when someone gets shot, "if only they had a gun" they would be alive. This proves that's bull because you can't know what would happen in a counter factual. If there were very few guns in society, maybe these shootings never even would have happened. That's another, equally valid counterfactual.

[Beet]

The argument from the pro gun side isn't that guns can sometimes help someone in some situations. It's that when someone gets shot, "if only they had a gun" they would be alive. This proves that's bull because you can't know what would happen in a counter factual. If there were very few guns in society, maybe these shootings never even would have happened. That's another, equally valid counterfactual.

It's obviously true that having a gun won't guarantee a 100% chance of not being killed (nothing will), but in most situations it does improve your chance of survival significantly. Not in this case due to the logistics of the situations but still, if the cops hadn't had guns the probability of their survival in an alternate universe would almost certainly be lower.

It would be negligibly lower. The cops here didn't have a chance, as no one can be vigilant against every other human being that happens to be in shooting range unless they move out to a rural area and barricade themselves in a fortified ranch. On the other hand, what if the killer had no gun? He would have had virtually no chance at all to kill the two officers sitting in their car. In any case, the pro gun side argument isn't that "well if the victim had a gun, there's a chance the killer could have been stopped, and let's weigh that possibility against the chance that the victim would be alive if the assailant didn't have a gun, and let's do objective academic studies of the effect of guns on killings and come up with a nuanced conclusion." Wayne LaPierre literally said, "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" after Sandy Hook.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Except I'm not even arguing for gun control, I've said a number if times that I no longer support it / it's a lost cause. I'm just arguing against the logic that more guns is the solution to gun violence, and that the fewer guns that people voluntarily decide to buy, the less guns are a part of our culture, the better for public health outcomes.