Discussing Democracy in the USA
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Author Topic: Discussing Democracy in the USA  (Read 1564 times)
Viking
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« on: December 20, 2014, 10:13:29 PM »
« edited: January 15, 2015, 02:34:16 AM by True Federalist »

http://politicalperiscope.com/rethinking-democracy-usa/
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Simfan34
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2014, 10:33:27 PM »

"destroy democracy in Iran"

Why do people keep on saying this when it's an utter falsehood? You cannot destroy democracy where it never existed. I'm curious what democracy there was in Vietnam, of all places.
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Vosem
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2014, 12:56:16 AM »

Definitely curious to discover what the US did wrong in Chile/Palestine/Venezuela. And the real US crime in Vietnam was in 1973.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2014, 12:57:05 AM »

Definitely curious to discover what the US did wrong in Chile/Palestine/Venezuela. And the real US crime in Vietnam was in 1973.

lmao
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politicus
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2014, 01:21:02 AM »
« Edited: December 26, 2014, 08:25:06 AM by politicus »

"destroy democracy in Iran"

Why do people keep on saying this when it's an utter falsehood? You cannot destroy democracy where it never existed.

Could you elaborate on that? Mossadegh was nominated as Prime Minister by the Majlis, so unless you think that the Majlis wasn't elected in a proper manner he was democratically elected (women didn't have the vote but since you are not exactly the "I am a male feminist" type  that is likely not what you are talking about. Wink ).

The exceptions to full adult suffrage don't seem so bad for the time and context: women, foreigners, under 25s, "persons notorious for mischievous opinions", convicts and ex convicts, active military personnel.

Iran was a constitutional monarchy with a Parliament and such systems do have a democratic element, which the Shah (with US assistance) blocked from increasing its power, thus curtailing a process that was heading towards parliamentarism and full democracy (or that is at least a reasonable interpretation - we will never know for sure). What happened changed a constitutional monarchy into a de facto absolute monarchy.

Iran was constitutionally where a lot of European states were in the second half of the 19th century that are generlly considered developing democratic in that era. The Shah had a habit of firing his PMs  at a rapid pace, but if Mossadegh had been able to stay it looks likely they could have continued down the same gradualist path to full democracy that constitutional monarchies took in Europe. At least the US backed "operation" blocked any possibility of that happening.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2014, 04:55:15 PM »

Definitely curious to discover what the US did wrong in Chile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#U.S._backing_of_the_coup
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SWE
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2014, 05:02:58 PM »

Definitely curious to discover what the US did wrong in Chile/Palestine/Venezuela. And the real US crime in Vietnam was in 1973.
...
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Simfan34
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2014, 05:34:41 PM »

"destroy democracy in Iran"

Why do people keep on saying this when it's an utter falsehood? You cannot destroy democracy where it never existed.

Could you elaborate on that? Mossadegh was nominated as Prime Minister by the Majlis, so unless you think that the Majlis wasn't elected in a proper manner he was democratically elected (women didn't have the vote but since you are not exactly the "I am a male feminist" type  that is likely not what you are talking about. Wink ).

The exceptions to full adult suffrage don't seem so bad for the time and context: women, foreigners, under 25s, "persons notorious for mischievous opinions", convicts and ex convicts, active military personnel.

Iran was a constitutional monarchy with a Parliament and such systems do have a democratic element, which the Shah (with US assistance) blocked from increasing its power, thus curtailing a process that was heading towards parliamentarism and full democracy (or that is at least a reasonable interpretation - we will never know for sure). What happened changed a constitutional monarchy into a de facto absolute monarchy.

Iran was constitutionally where a lot of European states were in the second half of the 19th century that are generlly considered developing democratic in that era. The Shah had a habit of firing his PMs  at a rapid pace, but if Mossadegh had been able to stay it looks likely they could have continued down the same grsdualist path to full democracy that constitutional monarchies took in Europe. At least the US backed "operation" blocked any possibility of that happening.

You think those were fair elections?  Okay then...
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Sol
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2014, 06:59:23 PM »


He's aware of it. IIRC Vosem is a major Pinochet apologist.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2014, 07:44:00 AM »

"destroy democracy in Iran"

Why do people keep on saying this when it's an utter falsehood? You cannot destroy democracy where it never existed.

Could you elaborate on that? Mossadegh was nominated as Prime Minister by the Majlis, so unless you think that the Majlis wasn't elected in a proper manner he was democratically elected (women didn't have the vote but since you are not exactly the "I am a male feminist" type  that is likely not what you are talking about. Wink ).

The exceptions to full adult suffrage don't seem so bad for the time and context: women, foreigners, under 25s, "persons notorious for mischievous opinions", convicts and ex convicts, active military personnel.

Iran was a constitutional monarchy with a Parliament and such systems do have a democratic element, which the Shah (with US assistance) blocked from increasing its power, thus curtailing a process that was heading towards parliamentarism and full democracy (or that is at least a reasonable interpretation - we will never know for sure). What happened changed a constitutional monarchy into a de facto absolute monarchy.

Iran was constitutionally where a lot of European states were in the second half of the 19th century that are generlly considered developing democratic in that era. The Shah had a habit of firing his PMs  at a rapid pace, but if Mossadegh had been able to stay it looks likely they could have continued down the same grsdualist path to full democracy that constitutional monarchies took in Europe. At least the US backed "operation" blocked any possibility of that happening.

You think those were fair elections?  Okay then...

Democracy is never born mature except perhaps in an amicable secession from a democratic system (Slovakia in 1993). Maybe it can form quickly when a nation secedes from a partially-democratic order and simply tosses away what was undemocratic (Czechoslovakia in 1919).

We will never know how democratic Iran would have been had Shah Reza Pahlavi II let a multi-party Majlis take shape. He chose instead to have an elective system in which only his puppets could run for and hold office, so his Majlis became a rubber-stamp. In view of how his regime ended, he made a bad choice whose consequences would not be obvious for 20 years. He could have let democracy develop slowly, but by the time the Iranian people were sick of him and his ability as a ruler failed (probably with his personal health),  the most ruthless, well-organized, and conspiratorial underground figures prevailed.

Just imagine a British-style democracy in Iran... and consider some of the tragedies that do not happen. A democratic Iran might not have been able to avoid war with Saddam Hussein, but it would have avoided the life-wasting attacks upon the tyrant's armies. Democracies may not like wars, but that doesn't stop them from winning the wars that they get into. The Iranian Armed Forces deliver a smashing defeat to someone who in reality became one of the most vicious tyrants before he could become the monster that he was. Saddam Hussein might never dare gas the Kurds as he did.
       
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The Mikado
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2014, 04:26:50 PM »

I'm curious about the notion that promoting democracy abroad or even actively supporting dictatorships abroad somehow infringes on domestic democracy. Where are you getting that connection? I don't see how US foreign policy relates to the US' status as a democracy or not a democracy. A state can be imperialist and remain a democracy.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 09:04:05 PM »

Just imagine a British-style democracy in Iran... and consider some of the tragedies that do not happen. A democratic Iran might not have been able to avoid war with Saddam Hussein, but it would have avoided the life-wasting attacks upon the tyrant's armies. Democracies may not like wars, but that doesn't stop them from winning the wars that they get into. The Iranian Armed Forces deliver a smashing defeat to someone who in reality became one of the most vicious tyrants before he could become the monster that he was. Saddam Hussein might never dare gas the Kurds as he did.

Without the Iranian Revolution Saddam would never have gone to war with Iran.  Saddam thought he would be facing an internally divided Iran that because of its foreign policy would be unable to obtain resupply from either superpower.  He also expect that the Gulf states would back him because of concerns about the revolution spreading to their own Shiites.  To a degree he was correct, but the war did help to unite Iran.  Without the Iran-Iraq War, the Revolution might have collapsed on its own in a few years.
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