Should Virginia Abolish their Independent Cities?

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Yes, I've made it quite clear how much I hate amalgamation. Do you really want your city to turnout like Jacksonville?

Do you want your city to turn out like Camden?

I'd rather turn out like Camden than Jacksonville.

[Hatman 🍁]

Yes, I've made it quite clear how much I hate amalgamation. Do you really want your city to turnout like Jacksonville?

Do you want your city to turn out like Camden?

I'd rather turn out like Camden than Jacksonville.

As would I; but the fear in these parts we're more likely to turn into Jacksonville than we were turning into Camden, prior to amalgamation. In Toronto, the suburbs are actually more Camden-like than the old city. 

[traininthedistance]

Yes, I've made it quite clear how much I hate amalgamation. Do you really want your city to turnout like Jacksonville?

Do you want your city to turn out like Camden?

I'd rather turn out like Camden than Jacksonville.

As would I; but the fear in these parts we're more likely to turn into Jacksonville than we were turning into Camden, prior to amalgamation. In Toronto, the suburbs are actually more Camden-like than the old city.  

I utterly fail to see any plausible mechanism by which Jacksonville would turn into an urbanist paradise if only it was a tiny entity surrounded by a patchwork of tiny suburbs.  If anything, "beggar-thy-neighbor" competition seems to me like it would make the situation worse.  I mean– has the fact that Atlanta is super penned in done anything to help the urban form of the metro area?  Come on.  All it's done is make sure that MARTA doesn't go where it needs to go.

Whereas I do see a potential path by which, if say Camden City and County were merged, the region's tax-base sharing and comprehensive planning would forestall or at least ameliorate the extreme disinvestment in an area that currently has no plausible way to pay its bills.

And also it would eliminate the insanity of multiple golf courses who like to be their own municipalities so they can make their own rules.  I mean, I'm sorry Hatman, if you were from NJ even you would see the light on this issue.

[Hatman 🍁]

If you were from, Canada, you would understand the horrors of amalgamation. As for Jacksonville, it's a lost cause.

I agree that if Camden and it's county had a stronger county government and a weaker municipal government, it would be better off. The answer is to not eliminate the city of Camden, it's to make it weaker entity.

[Mr. Smith]

Oh Canada, where not even the Capital has it's own thing. Every other democracy seems to...but nope not Ottawa.

[Hatman 🍁]

Oh Canada, where not even the Capital has it's own thing. Every other democracy seems to...but nope not Ottawa.

Not sure how this came up, but this is a very incorrect statement. You will see that this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_districts_and_territories contains just 24 entries, several of which are not even democracies.

[Sol]

Obviously Ottawa or Halifax style amalgamation incorporating rural areas is dumb. But balkanizing a metro area, thus making metropolitan governance and planning much more difficult, is even worse.

I really do not see what is wrong with the amalgamation of Toronto, for example. The only argument I've seen against it really is that it was a plan to gerrymander the city conservative--but considering that greater Toronto is a right-wing area, that's sort of tough luck. Toronto (and in this sense I include Pickering and Oshawa and Scarborough, which are as much a part of the city as downtown) is a right-wing city.

[Hatman 🍁]

Obviously Ottawa or Halifax style amalgamation incorporating rural areas is dumb. But balkanizing a metro area, thus making metropolitan governance and planning much more difficult, is even worse.

I really do not see what is wrong with the amalgamation of Toronto, for example. The only argument I've seen against it really is that it was a plan to gerrymander the city conservative--but considering that greater Toronto is a right-wing area, that's sort of tough luck. Toronto (and in this sense I include Pickering and Oshawa and Scarborough, which are as much a part of the city as downtown) is a right-wing city.

Two words: Rob Ford. Also, Mel Lastman, and now John Tory. Toronto is an extremely polarized city. It has no business being amalgamated as one municipality.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Two words: Rob Ford. Also, Mel Lastman, and now John Tory. Toronto is an extremely polarized city. It has no business being amalgamated as one municipality.

It sounds like Canada's version of Cincinnati, in that regard.

[Sol]

Obviously Ottawa or Halifax style amalgamation incorporating rural areas is dumb. But balkanizing a metro area, thus making metropolitan governance and planning much more difficult, is even worse.

I really do not see what is wrong with the amalgamation of Toronto, for example. The only argument I've seen against it really is that it was a plan to gerrymander the city conservative--but considering that greater Toronto is a right-wing area, that's sort of tough luck. Toronto (and in this sense I include Pickering and Oshawa and Scarborough, which are as much a part of the city as downtown) is a right-wing city.

Two words: Rob Ford. Also, Mel Lastman, and now John Tory. Toronto is an extremely polarized city. It has no business being amalgamated as one municipality.

Again, these conservative voters are what the average Torontian wants. Your position is a bit like someone who wants to carve up Idaho so that the Democrats in Blaine County can elect a lefty--except Idaho is a much less logical entity than a fully amalgamated Greater Toronto.

[Badger]

Yes, I've made it quite clear how much I hate amalgamation. Do you really want your city to turnout like Jacksonville?

Do you want your city to turn out like Camden?

I'd rather turn out like Camden than Jacksonville.

The actual residents of Camden disagree, I'm sure.

[ag]

I would go the New England style and abolish the counties

Seriously, I do not see a problem either way. The entire discussion seems to be contrived.

[muon2]

I would go the New England style and abolish the counties

Seriously, I do not see a problem either way. The entire discussion seems to be contrived.

To VA's credit they have when all the county was in an independent city as has happened in the Hampton Roads area (eg. Elizabeth City county -> Hampton city; Nansemond county -> Suffolk city; Norfolk county -> Chesapeake city; Princess Anne county -> Virginia Beach city; Warwick county -> Newport News city; though some of these went through other cities before consolidation)

[cinyc]

I would go the New England style and abolish the counties

Seriously, I do not see a problem either way. The entire discussion seems to be contrived.

The problem is that unlike in New England, not everyone in Virginia lives in a town.  Many people live in unincorporated areas of a county.