The Seriously? Theatre of Absurdity, Ignorance, and Bad Posts V

[Torie]

Sen. Franken (D-MN) is officially a YES.

Another self-hater.

Sen. Franken (D-MN) is officially a YES.

Another self-hater.

It's an honor for me to be quoted here when calling traitorous Jews what they are: people who deliberately bring insecurity and terror to their fellow Jews, people who trample on the most beautiful heritage the world has ever known, whether it be out of true self-hatred or sheer opportunism. Please continue to spread my message in the future. Some people could learn from that, even here.

Your 'message' is just as offensive as people calling conservative blacks 'self-haters'. Maybe you ought to think that people should be able have diverse views on politics without having to worry about what they'll be called based on their religion/ethnicity.

It is not white people's place to call conservative blacks "self-haters", but other black people could do that, although they would, in my opinion, obviously be wrong (and probably offensive, but when did that become a crime?). As a Jew, I don't care if my message is offensive to other Jews, because I'm telling the truth and they need to hear it. Either they know I'm telling the truth or looking in the mirror hurts, but eventually they'll hopefully understand what I'm saying.

Sure, people can have a "diverse view on politics". A Jew can be a conservative, a liberal, a socialist, a moderate, I don't care. But a Jew cannot turn against his own people. The nonsensical idea that a Jew can "legitimately" undermine his fellow Jew's security and his right to live in our own country needs to be scorned again and again. The nonsensical idea that a Jew can do the anti-Semite's work (and worse, rendering this work "legitimate" in the eyes of "the world"), like a true Court Jew who bows down to his king, without facing harsh judgment and condemnation from his community needs to be scorned again and again, until everybody knows that one cannot simultaneously stab his fellow Jew in the back and be considered respectable.

Listen, I am a cultural secular WASP and a strong supporter of Israel. Always have been. The reason I think your comment is offensive (the bit in bold), is that many Jews don't believe in good faith that the Iran deal threatens Israel's security, and indeed might enhance it. If they thought otherwise, they would oppose the deal. It's a judgment call. That judgment might be wrong (I don't know enough about the Iran deal, and what the options are at this point (the sanctions regime might be effectively dead now no matter what happens for example), to have an opinion myself), but just because the judgment is wrong, does not make such Jews self haters, or indifferent to Israel. I might add that Alan Dershowitz who opposes the deal, suggests that probably the best option at this point, given what he views as the incompetent negotiating, is for Congress to embrace the statement of intent in the preamble of the deal that Iran is never to have nukes, and vote to grant POTUS authority to use force if that is necessary to take out Iran nukes if and when they come into being to carry out the intent of the preamble. In his view, the milk now has largely been spilt, due to Obama's ineptitude.

Your comment was reported, which is why I am weighing in here. I don't think it a violation of the TOS myself (it is your sincerely held opinion), but I hope you will ponder what I am saying, and think about walking your comment back, and just suggest perhaps that it saddens you that so many Jews just have such poor judgment as you see it on this matter. JMO. Take care.

[DavidB.]

Are you really calling Jews who support the Iran deal race traitors?

Silly question. Jews are not a "race". Only nazis think that. And some commies, maybe...

I hope you realize you fit your own description to a T (also thank you for posting directly in the deluge, etc.)

Uh, nope, this is really not gonna fly. I'm not the one who defends anti-Jewish interests.

Btw, I already expected you to show up here, whahaha. One might wonder why...

Listen, I am a cultural secular WASP and a strong supporter of Israel. Always have been. The reason I think your comment is offensive (the bit in bold), is that many Jews don't believe in good faith that the Iran deal threatens Israel's security, and indeed might enhance it. If they though otherwise, they would oppose the deal. It's a judgment call. That judgment might be wrong (I don't know enough about the Iran deal, and what the options are at this point (the sanctions regime might be effectively dead now no matter what happens for example), to have an opinion myself), but just because the judgment is wrong, does not make such Jews self haters, or indifferent to Israel. I might add that Alan Dershowitz who opposes the deal, suggests that probably the best option at this point, given what he views as the incompetent negotiating, is for Congress to embrace the statement of intent in the preamble of the deal that Iran is never to have nukes, and vote to grant POTUS authority to use force if that is necessary to take out Iran nukes if and when they come into being to carry out the intent of the preamble. In his view, the milk now has largely been spilt, due to Obama's ineptitude.

Your comment was reported, which is why I am weighing in here. I don't think it a violation of the TOS myself (it is your sincerely held opinion), but I hope you will ponder what I am saying, and think about walking your comment back, and just suggest perhaps that it saddens you that so many Jews just have such poor judgment as you see it on this matter. JMO. Take care.

Hi Torie, thanks for your kind reply. First of all, I'd like to emphasize that in fact I haven't called all Jewish supporters of the Iran deal self-haters or traitors. I, like you, know Jews who support this agreement because they think it will hinder Iran in obtaining nucleair weapons, or because they think including Iran in the "international community" will render nuking Israel a bad deal for Iran, since it will derive many benefits from not doing so. To be clear, I find that unbelievable and I think these people are misinformed and misguided, but I respect them, because they genuinely care about Israel and the security of the Jewish people.

What strikes me is that Al Franken didn't seem to have this in mind when deciding on the deal. I don't get the impression that he cares more about Israel than any random Democratic senator, who maybe mentions Israel once to secure his Jewish donors' support. If I ever hold public office (which I highly doubt ), I think my fellow Jews can legitimately hold me to a higher standard than other politicians when it comes to defending the Jewish people's inalienable right to live in the Jewish homeland in security. That's what I do with Franken (and those other guys like Schatz and Wyden) and that's why I'm disappointed in him. I think it is reasonable to judge them for this, since I don't know of many legitimate rabbis who considers ahavat yisrael something that can be taken lightly (Malaspina, please note the legitimate part).

In short, I agree with you: if Jews have Israel's (and America's, mind you) best interest at heart but decide to be in favour of the deal, then I don't think they have to be self-haters or traitors. However, there are many Jews who either don't care or who actively try to undermine Israel's security. These people are the ones my comments were directed at. That might be offensive to some, but to me it is highly offensive that there are fellow Jews who don't care about our land and our people, the land I love with all my heart and the people I love with all my heart.

[Antonio the Sixth]

People don't owe "loyalty" to whatever ethnic group they might belong to, whether it be Jews, Blacks, White, or anyone else. This is an disgustingly reactionary and un-democratic idea that must be destroyed with fire. I can't believe I even have to say this.

[DavidB.]

People don't owe loyalty to whatever ethnic group they might belong to. This is an disgustingly reactionary and un-democratic idea that must be destroyed with fire. I can't believe I even have to say this.

Well, in some sense, Judaism obviously is extremely reactionary. We've been around for quite some time, you see. And you're not the first one to think it should be killed with fire, nor will you be the last one.

See, I'll try to stop this "discussion" for now because I truly like most posters here, even though I haven't been around on Atlas for so long, and basically I'm not here for discussing Judaism/Israel anyway, since I'm much more interested in learning about politics in areas I don't know so much about. But if people ask me for my opinions, I won't be silent.

[Antonio the Sixth]

People don't owe loyalty to whatever ethnic group they might belong to. This is an disgustingly reactionary and un-democratic idea that must be destroyed with fire. I can't believe I even have to say this.

Well, in some sense, Judaism obviously is extremely reactionary. We've been around for quite some time, you see. And you're not the first one to think it should be killed with fire, nor will you be the last one.

See, I'll try to stop this "discussion" for now because I truly like most posters here, even though I haven't been around on Atlas for so long, and basically I'm not here for discussing Judaism/Israel anyway, since I'm much more interested in learning about politics in areas I don't know so much about. But if people ask me for my opinions, I won't be silent.

And if your opinions are trash, we'll call them trash.

[Türkisblau]

I get extremely frustrated when discussing Israel with bedstuy, and not even he uses such extreme rhetoric like DavidB., so I can't even imagine us trying to have a conversation! I'd probably be labeled and anti-semetic genocidal maniac.

I must ask why you think Al Franken is purposefully trying to undermine Israel? Why do you think he sincerely doesn't have Israel's interests in heart? Should a United States Senator be thinking about Israel first when deciding policy?

[DavidB.]

People don't owe loyalty to whatever ethnic group they might belong to. This is an disgustingly reactionary and un-democratic idea that must be destroyed with fire. I can't believe I even have to say this.

Well, in some sense, Judaism obviously is extremely reactionary. We've been around for quite some time, you see. And you're not the first one to think it should be killed with fire, nor will you be the last one.

See, I'll try to stop this "discussion" for now because I truly like most posters here, even though I haven't been around on Atlas for so long, and basically I'm not here for discussing Judaism/Israel anyway, since I'm much more interested in learning about politics in areas I don't know so much about. But if people ask me for my opinions, I won't be silent.

And if your opinions are trash, we'll call them trash.

You're entitled to do so, just as I'm entitled to voice my opinions - but not everyone seems to agree on that, given the fact that someone reported it. So to the person who reported me: Please put me on ignore if you don't like what I'm saying, it's the easiest option. I'm not reporting all the commie/pally nonsense either. Let it go.

I get extremely frustrated when discussing Israel with bedstuy, and not even he uses such extreme rhetoric like DavidB., so I can't even imagine us trying to have a conversation! I'd probably be labeled and anti-semetic genocidal maniac.

I must ask why you think Al Franken is purposefully trying to undermine Israel? Why do you think he sincerely doesn't have Israel's interests in heart? Should a United States Senator be thinking about Israel first when deciding policy?

This is probably not the best thread for discussing this, so I'll answer briefly. I don't know if Franken tries to undermine Israel's security or if he simply doesn't care about Israel, but -- as far as I know -- he didn't show any special commitment to its security (not talking about the average Democratic mumbo jumbo right now), which is problematic to me. A U.S. Senator should firstly be thinking about the U.S. when making policy, that is obvious. (This is not only a bad deal for Israel, but also for the U.S.) However, I think that it's not strange for a Jew to expect Franken to show somewhat more commitment to Israel's security than he actually did. I'm not talking about him voting for the deal in itself, I'm talking about whether he considered Israel's security relevant at all when making the decision to vote for this deal.

[The Other Castro]

I'm Jewish, and I believe that this deal is better for the safety of Israel in the long run than no deal at all. To disagree with that opinion is fine, but to deem it self-hating is just stupid.

[DavidB.]

I'm Jewish, and I believe that this deal is better for the safety of Israel in the long run than no deal at all. To disagree with that opinion is fine, but to deem it self-hating is just stupid.

If you read my reply to Torie well, then you will find that I actually haven't deemed that self-hating.

[The Other Castro]

I'm Jewish, and I believe that this deal is better for the safety of Israel in the long run than no deal at all. To disagree with that opinion is fine, but to deem it self-hating is just stupid.

If you read my reply to Torie well, then you will find that I actually haven't deemed that self-hating.

Do you actually believe that Al Franken doesn't care about/is seeking to undermine Israel's safety?

[DavidB.]

I'm Jewish, and I believe that this deal is better for the safety of Israel in the long run than no deal at all. To disagree with that opinion is fine, but to deem it self-hating is just stupid.

If you read my reply to Torie well, then you will find that I actually haven't deemed that self-hating.

Do you actually believe that Al Franken doesn't care about/is seeking to undermine Israel's safety?

Yes, I hope it's the first option.

Edit: Now I read that Franken also skipped Bibi's speech, I see my opinion confirmed. Really, it's no conincidence that Jewish senators were disproportionately absent at Bibi's speech: three (Franken, Schatz, Sanders) out of eight (the others being Leahy, Heinrich, Kaine, Warren, and Whitehouse), while there are only ten Jewish senators. That's because they don't feel comfortable with their Judaism. It makes them feel guilty about being bad Jews. Israel's existence makes them feel guilty. It's easier for these senators to keep their people at a distance.

[Türkisblau]

So to be a good Jew you have to listen to the reactionary dictations of an unconstitutionally invited foreign leader? Keep moving them goalposts!

Not only is much of this absolutely unhinged and insane but much is also factually wrong, like where did you get the idea that Whitehouse who is the WASPiest of WASPs is Jewish? My favorite part is when you say there are only 10 Jewish US Senators when Jews make up 2.1% of the U.S. population. What number is enough? How much of our government do you think should be owned by the Israel lobby?

edit: OK, the wording was confusing as  to me for whatever reason.

[DavidB.]

So to be a good Jew you have to listen to the reactionary dictations of an unconstitutionally invited foreign leader?

Not only is much of this absolutely unhinged and insane but much is also factually wrong. My favorite part is when you say there are only 10 Jewish US Senators when Jews make up 2.1% of the U.S. population. What number is enough? How much of our government do you think should be owned by the Israel lobby?

Three out of ONLY ten Jewish senators not being at the speech = 30% of Jewish Senators
Five out of 90 non-Jewish senators not being at the speech = I'm lazy, but a very low percentage of Senators.

That's what I meant. I didn't mean that there should be more Jewish senators. I don't care about that. In fact, I think it would be good if people like Franken and Schatz were outvoted and replaced by non-Jewish senators, who would probably be better on Israel. At least they wouldn't be able to pull the "I'm Jewish so every horrible thing I say about Israel is legitimate and not anti-Semitic at all"-card, like many do, while ordering another ham-cheese sandwich on the annual J Street conference - and some more shrimps.

I do find it strange, however, that you seem to have a problem with the current amount of Jewish senators, and I also find it strange that you seem to think that being Jewish equals "being owned by the Israel lobby". Not only is this untrue (I just made the calculation that Jewish senators were disproportionally absent at Bibi's speech...), but it also reinforces the idea, popular among socialists and racist libertarians, that there is a "conflict of interest" between supporting Israel and supporting the U.S., while in reality, Israel is the most reliable ally of the U.S. in the Middle East: being pro-Israel is also in the interest of the U.S and this shouldn't even be a partisan issue.

Also lolz @ "unconstitutionally invited", you're trying to bring the Tea Party's vocabulary to the left side? When people scream "unconstitutional" you know they have run out of arguments. So that's why I'm going to put you on ignore. Buh-bye

[Türkisblau]

A Likud piece of trash is putting me on ignore!? Whatever shall I do?

[DavidB.]

A Likud piece of trash is putting me on ignore!? Whatever shall I do?

Lol. I'm well to the right of Likud, I wouldn't have voted for them...

But let's end this pointless "discussion".

[Türkisblau]

A Likud piece of trash is putting me on ignore!? Whatever shall I do?

Lol. I'm well to the right of Likud, I wouldn't have voted for them...

Utterly terrifying.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This is a strange post because it isn't really saying anything objectively odious yet it still manages to be profoundly unpleasant.

All ethnic based culture is ridiculous. If people only like your food, clothing, language, etc because they were born into it, then obviously your food, clothing, language, etc suck. Ideally everyone would be free to appropriate whatever individual things they like from any given culture.

ETA:

I believe in the free market when it comes to things which aren't required to stay alive, culture being one of them. If a culture fails in the free market, clearly it sucked.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm Jewish, and I believe that this deal is better for the safety of Israel in the long run than no deal at all. To disagree with that opinion is fine, but to deem it self-hating is just stupid.

If you read my reply to Torie well, then you will find that I actually haven't deemed that self-hating.

Do you actually believe that Al Franken doesn't care about/is seeking to undermine Israel's safety?

Yes, I hope it's the first option.

Edit: Now I read that Franken also skipped Bibi's speech, I see my opinion confirmed. Really, it's no conincidence that Jewish senators were disproportionately absent at Bibi's speech: three (Franken, Schatz, Sanders) out of eight (the others being Leahy, Heinrich, Kaine, Warren, and Whitehouse), while there are only ten Jewish senators. That's because they don't feel comfortable with their Judaism. It makes them feel guilty about being bad Jews. Israel's existence makes them feel guilty. It's easier for these senators to keep their people at a distance.

I was going to go look for the Deluge to submit this only to find out it's already here. So yep classic case of posting directly into the Deluge.

[Figueira]

I'm Jewish, and I'm extremely offended by DavidB.'s posts.

[MalaspinaGold]

Eh, you shouldn't. He's baalei tshuvot, so he likely can't help himself...

[SATW]

DavidB and myself are just...so very, very, very heartbroken by the offense taken by the left-wing

[Flake]

Could someone explain to me the right wing argument against the Iran deal (I'm assuming that's the argument because I see a lot of Israel/etc. in the recent posts), because I don't know why it's controversial.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Could someone explain to me the right wing argument against the Iran deal (I'm assuming that's the argument because I see a lot of Israel/etc. in the recent posts), because I don't know why it's controversial.

Wars are good and Obama is bad.

[DavidB.]

Eh, you shouldn't. He's baalei tshuvot, so he likely can't help himself...

Talking to me in plural is a bit too much honor, even for me. Ever considered taking Hebrew classes?

I'm Jewish, and I'm extremely offended by DavidB.'s posts.

1 like = 1 tear
1 share = 1 ban

[MalaspinaGold]

Eh, you shouldn't. He's baalei tshuvot, so he likely can't help himself...

Talking to me in plural is a bit too much honor, even for me. Ever considered taking Hebrew classes?

I'm Jewish, and I'm extremely offended by DavidB.'s posts.

1 like = 1 tear
1 share = 1 ban

Excuse me Baalei Tshuva. My point still stands.