Leelah Alcorn, transgender girl, kills self due to bigoted parents

[Joe Republic]

The cognitive dissonance of the fundie parents is interesting  though: they believed that their daughter, who was going against god's will, identified as atheist, and committed suicide, "went home to heaven." They pushed her to suicide by pushing one section of the Bible and then completely ignore another.

"Going home to heaven" is just something people say after somebody they know dies.  It's basically meaningless, just like this family's declared love for their child.

[afleitch]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/

The mother speaks.

[TDAS04]

Bigots continue to be bigots.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/

The mother speaks.

Disgusting.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I once again reiterate the need for a cleansing Terror.

[politicus]

The religious context of this is not 100% clear to me. Is this link between fundis and being against transsexuals as simple as "God ascribed a gender to him/her, it is sinful to change it?" Or is there more to it? (fear of their "son" turning gay by having a relationship to a guy?).

[Lambsbread]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/

The mother speaks.

It's people like this that make it so hard for me to defend Christianity, because there are too many examples of people like this. The religion itself is not the problem, that's certain, but the fact that so many people think just as this woman thinks is so...mind-numbing. So sad.

[Hatman 🍁]

This story really upset me very much. If you aren't ready to love and accept your child unconditionally, then you aren't ready to have a child.
Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the first thing about what it is like to be a transgender person. In an ideal society, the number of transgender people that exist would be much more limited because the only people who would want to change genders would be those who want to change for biological reasons. In our society, though, the main reason for changing genders seems to be that people believe that their biological sex at birth does not match up with their gender identity. Gender is a human construct. It is a sad reflection on our society that we force people to change genders because they cannot fit into the preassigned characteristics that are expected of them from birth. A woman can be assertive and sporty and a man can sensitive and wear makeup. My point is, we don't need gender identities at all, whether transgender or cisgender. However, we were born into a society that has forced it upon us, and there are thankfully many people trying to fight it. Even so, many people continue to support the archaic traditions of masculinity and femininity. Many of these people are the same ones who refuse to accept transgender people into society, which is ironic considering that the transgender community is just trying adhere to the societal norms of these people.
As I said, the ultimate goal is to create a "gender-less" but not "sex-less" society where people do not feel obliged to change themselves to fit other people's predefined boundaries. In the meantime, we must accept transgender individuals for who they are, because they know better than anyone else, including me, what is best for them.

This is a very interesting point, and something I've thought about as well. I think the subject of gender identity is far more nuanced, and something I will never understand. I would love to be enlightened as to what the difference between a butch lesbian and a man born with (or still has( female genitalia is. I suppose in the debate between nature vs. nurture, it is not just one or the other. But it would love to know what makes someone a man or a woman, outside of stereotypical gender roles and genitalia.

[Mister Mets]

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Sol]

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

She was ing bullied to death by her vile family because of their bigotry. She was forced to live as someone who she did not identify as. She was deliberately isolated from her friends and endured conversion therapy. Her life was made hell.

It's not 'retroactive affirmation' to say that she was driven to the breaking point by the ultra-transphobic attitudes held by her parents--it is a mere statement of fact. Nearly half of all trans* people have attempted to commit suicide. And simply put, her voices and the voices of people in similar situations need be given a gigantic platform--people need to be screaming for justice right now!

So maybe think before you post next time, asshole.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

This story really upset me very much. If you aren't ready to love and accept your child unconditionally, then you aren't ready to have a child.
Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the first thing about what it is like to be a transgender person. In an ideal society, the number of transgender people that exist would be much more limited because the only people who would want to change genders would be those who want to change for biological reasons. In our society, though, the main reason for changing genders seems to be that people believe that their biological sex at birth does not match up with their gender identity. Gender is a human construct. It is a sad reflection on our society that we force people to change genders because they cannot fit into the preassigned characteristics that are expected of them from birth. A woman can be assertive and sporty and a man can sensitive and wear makeup. My point is, we don't need gender identities at all, whether transgender or cisgender. However, we were born into a society that has forced it upon us, and there are thankfully many people trying to fight it. Even so, many people continue to support the archaic traditions of masculinity and femininity. Many of these people are the same ones who refuse to accept transgender people into society, which is ironic considering that the transgender community is just trying adhere to the societal norms of these people.
As I said, the ultimate goal is to create a "gender-less" but not "sex-less" society where people do not feel obliged to change themselves to fit other people's predefined boundaries. In the meantime, we must accept transgender individuals for who they are, because they know better than anyone else, including me, what is best for them.

But gender isn't a social construct - that's why this happened. Nobody constructed Leelah to be a girl, she was a girl on the inside; they tried to construct her to be a boy and it didn't work out. The fact that transgender people exist means that gender is innate. I don't know how, I don't know why, I'm not a biologist or a psychologist or any of those sorts of things, but I do know that it's not a matter of whether we "need" gender identities, it's a matter of what to do with them.

The reason Leelah killed herself wasn't because she was being "forced to change genders", it was because she was not allowed to change genders (or rather sexes - transgender people change the sex to match the gender, not the other way around).

[Deus Naturae]

Yeah, unless you're going to suggest that transgenderism is a mental condition, transgender individuals are basically proof that gender roles are rooted in biology to some extent. That's why radical feminists typically hate trans people.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Yeah, unless you're going to suggest that transgenderism is a mental condition, transgender individuals are basically proof that gender roles are rooted in biology to some extent. That's why radical feminists typically hate trans people.

I wouldn't say "typically" (for indeed I'm not even sure what a radical feminist is by your definition), but yes, trans-exclusionary radical feminism is a thing and should be shot.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

This story really upset me very much. If you aren't ready to love and accept your child unconditionally, then you aren't ready to have a child.
Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the first thing about what it is like to be a transgender person. In an ideal society, the number of transgender people that exist would be much more limited because the only people who would want to change genders would be those who want to change for biological reasons. In our society, though, the main reason for changing genders seems to be that people believe that their biological sex at birth does not match up with their gender identity. Gender is a human construct. It is a sad reflection on our society that we force people to change genders because they cannot fit into the preassigned characteristics that are expected of them from birth. A woman can be assertive and sporty and a man can sensitive and wear makeup. My point is, we don't need gender identities at all, whether transgender or cisgender. However, we were born into a society that has forced it upon us, and there are thankfully many people trying to fight it. Even so, many people continue to support the archaic traditions of masculinity and femininity. Many of these people are the same ones who refuse to accept transgender people into society, which is ironic considering that the transgender community is just trying adhere to the societal norms of these people.
As I said, the ultimate goal is to create a "gender-less" but not "sex-less" society where people do not feel obliged to change themselves to fit other people's predefined boundaries. In the meantime, we must accept transgender individuals for who they are, because they know better than anyone else, including me, what is best for them.

But gender isn't a social construct - that's why this happened. Nobody constructed Leelah to be a girl, she was a girl on the inside; they tried to construct her to be a boy and it didn't work out. The fact that transgender people exist means that gender is innate. I don't know how, I don't know why, I'm not a biologist or a psychologist or any of those sorts of things, but I do know that it's not a matter of whether we "need" gender identities, it's a matter of what to do with them.

The reason Leelah killed herself wasn't because she was being "forced to change genders", it was because she was not allowed to change genders (or rather sexes - transgender people change the sex to match the gender, not the other way around).

Gender is not an innate biological characteristic but is indeed a social construct. Look at how gender norms have varied so widely across time and place. Blue was once the color for girls, associated with the Virgin Mary, while pink was the color for boys, considered a bold color.

Were the social construct of gender to be abolished there would be no gender dysphoria and transgenderism because each human being would be free to express themselves as individuals without any "male" or "female" assignments to the way they act or dress or speak.

Transsexuality would still exist, but not transgenderism, were gender to be deconstructed (which would require undoing thousands of years of artificial social construction.)

[Lambsbread]

Yeah, unless you're going to suggest that transgenderism is a mental condition, transgender individuals are basically proof that gender roles are rooted in biology to some extent. That's why radical feminists typically hate trans people.

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

Did you guys have a goddamn "who can make the stupider post" contest? Because I'm not sure who wins.

[Deus Naturae]

Yeah, unless you're going to suggest that transgenderism is a mental condition, transgender individuals are basically proof that gender roles are rooted in biology to some extent. That's why radical feminists typically hate trans people.

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

Did you guys have a goddamn "who can make the stupider post" contest? Because I'm not sure who wins.

What's wrong with my post? Why are you getting mad at me rather than Alfred when we pretty much said the same thing?

[Deus Naturae]

Gender is not an innate biological characteristic but is indeed a social construct. Look at how gender norms have varied so widely across time and place. Blue was once the color for girls, associated with the Virgin Mary, while pink was the color for boys, considered a bold color.

Were the social construct of gender to be abolished there would be no gender dysphoria and transgenderism because each human being would be free to express themselves as individuals without any "male" or "female" assignments to the way they act or dress or speak.

Transsexuality would still exist, but not transgenderism, were gender to be deconstructed (which would require undoing thousands of years of artificial social construction.)

Some aspects of gender are socially constructed, but gender roles are at least to some extent biological (see: testosterone and estrogen).

[The Mikado]

But gender isn't a social construct - that's why this happened. Nobody constructed Leelah to be a girl, she was a girl on the inside; they tried to construct her to be a boy and it didn't work out. The fact that transgender people exist means that gender is innate. I don't know how, I don't know why, I'm not a biologist or a psychologist or any of those sorts of things, but I do know that it's not a matter of whether we "need" gender identities, it's a matter of what to do with them.

The reason Leelah killed herself wasn't because she was being "forced to change genders", it was because she was not allowed to change genders (or rather sexes - transgender people change the sex to match the gender, not the other way around).

Sex is what is biological, and what can only be changed by surgery and hormones. There's a reason that gender grew into what it now is out of its earlier role as a grammar term: gender is a linguistic construct that is built into all of the ways we view society. Gender governs everything from "the man is a Mr., but the woman can be a Ms. or Mrs. depending on her marital status" to "the generic singular pronoun with indeterminate gender is 'He'" to things that don't seem directly connected to grammar rules, how we talk and think about the differences between the sexes in general.

Put more simply, surgery and hormones can turn a man into a woman or vice versa, but it takes language to change a male into a female or vice versa, right down to changing the fundamental building blocks of language like pronouns.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

This story really upset me very much. If you aren't ready to love and accept your child unconditionally, then you aren't ready to have a child.
Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the first thing about what it is like to be a transgender person. In an ideal society, the number of transgender people that exist would be much more limited because the only people who would want to change genders would be those who want to change for biological reasons. In our society, though, the main reason for changing genders seems to be that people believe that their biological sex at birth does not match up with their gender identity. Gender is a human construct. It is a sad reflection on our society that we force people to change genders because they cannot fit into the preassigned characteristics that are expected of them from birth. A woman can be assertive and sporty and a man can sensitive and wear makeup. My point is, we don't need gender identities at all, whether transgender or cisgender. However, we were born into a society that has forced it upon us, and there are thankfully many people trying to fight it. Even so, many people continue to support the archaic traditions of masculinity and femininity. Many of these people are the same ones who refuse to accept transgender people into society, which is ironic considering that the transgender community is just trying adhere to the societal norms of these people.
As I said, the ultimate goal is to create a "gender-less" but not "sex-less" society where people do not feel obliged to change themselves to fit other people's predefined boundaries. In the meantime, we must accept transgender individuals for who they are, because they know better than anyone else, including me, what is best for them.

But gender isn't a social construct - that's why this happened. Nobody constructed Leelah to be a girl, she was a girl on the inside; they tried to construct her to be a boy and it didn't work out. The fact that transgender people exist means that gender is innate. I don't know how, I don't know why, I'm not a biologist or a psychologist or any of those sorts of things, but I do know that it's not a matter of whether we "need" gender identities, it's a matter of what to do with them.

The reason Leelah killed herself wasn't because she was being "forced to change genders", it was because she was not allowed to change genders (or rather sexes - transgender people change the sex to match the gender, not the other way around).

Gender is not an innate biological characteristic but is indeed a social construct. Look at how gender norms have varied so widely across time and place. Blue was once the color for girls, associated with the Virgin Mary, while pink was the color for boys, considered a bold color.

Were the social construct of gender to be abolished there would be no gender dysphoria and transgenderism because each human being would be free to express themselves as individuals without any "male" or "female" assignments to the way they act or dress or speak.

Transsexuality would still exist, but not transgenderism, were gender to be deconstructed (which would require undoing thousands of years of artificial social construction.)

Gender roles are a social construct, but gender isn't. There are feminine transmen and masculine transwomen - hell, I know one of each! Some people are women, some people are men, some people are somewhere in between, and some people are way out off in the distance. I'm not sure what sort of distinction you're making between transsexuality and transgenderism. Leelah didn't kill herself because she wanted to wear dresses or whatever, she killed herself because she was a woman.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yeah, unless you're going to suggest that transgenderism is a mental condition, transgender individuals are basically proof that gender roles are rooted in biology to some extent. That's why radical feminists typically hate trans people.

I wouldn't say "typically" (for indeed I'm not even sure what a radical feminist is by your definition), but yes, trans-exclusionary radical feminism is a thing and should be shot.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Not super-directly related to what was just being discussed (for the record: I see nothing wrong with the existence of gender roles as an abstract concept but think the boundaries between them should be as porous and as optional as possible, and I don't actually particularly care whether they're rooted in biology or not), but something else that's been weighing on me for the past couple of days with regards to all this is that such support for trans people as we do have in this country seems to default to prioritizing the needs of trans men over trans women. An example, one that might seem somewhat petty but that comes to mind for me because I've encountered it several times in the quite recent past (and yes, I admit that it's mostly tumblr where I've encountered this), is the tendency that a lot of people have to recommend contouring without explaining how to do it. People who have been socialized as male cannot be expected to either already know or somehow intuit how to contour. Hell, even a lot of people who have been socialized as female don't know how to contour. The impression that one gets is something along the lines of 'the trans people most worth giving advice and support to are people who were assigned female at birth and to some extent socialized into conventional femininity but now want to look more masculine', which completely sidelines the needs of all trans women and frankly a lot of trans men too.

The word that a lot of people (again, especially on tumblr) will use for this sort of thing is 'transmisogyny', a special type of misogyny held to specifically afflict trans women by contrast to both non-trans women (not using the adjective 'cis' in deference to some posters here who find it twee or something) and trans men, but I don't think it's necessarily helpful to treat it as qualitatively different from other forms of transphobia and misogyny when really it's more or less just both acting at once. Denying that trans women face unique challenges compared to both non-trans women and trans men is mendacious and harmful, but claiming that these challenges stem from a qualitatively unique form of oppression rather than a compound of more familiar forms strikes me as needlessly damaging to solidarity (or intersectionality, whatever your particular current of leftist and feminist activism's preferred term is for this concept).

[Hatman 🍁]

What makes someone "biologically male" or "biologically female"? How does one know they have the wrong set of genitals?

[Cassius]

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

She was ing bullied to death by her vile family because of their bigotry. She was forced to live as someone who she did not identify as. She was deliberately isolated from her friends and endured conversion therapy. Her life was made hell.

It's not 'retroactive affirmation' to say that she was driven to the breaking point by the ultra-transphobic attitudes held by her parents--it is a mere statement of fact. Nearly half of all trans* people have attempted to commit suicide. And simply put, her voices and the voices of people in similar situations need be given a gigantic platform--people need to be screaming for justice right now!

So maybe think before you post next time, asshole.

There are no 'facts' in this case - other than the suicide of this person obviously. Alcorn's account of the events leading up to his decision to commit suicide differs quite significantly from that given by his mother. As much as I am loathe to speak ill of the dead, why should she be believed? Why is her account neccessarily correct. People commit suicide for many reasons (indeed, she alluded to other reasons besides the supposed lack of support that she received from her parents), and occasionally embellish those reasons. From what I've read, this was obviously a highly troubled and conflicted person, and I don't see it as being beyond the bounds of probability that, having taken a dislike to her parents (as many children are wont to do, often for less than serious reasons), she decided that part of her legacy would be to blacken their names and deliver them up for public humiliation.

Of course, she could have been telling 'the truth'. But that's something we'll never know, and thus I find it a little premature and silly to pass moral judgement on her parents when we can never even be sure that she was telling the truth.

[Sol]

But gender isn't a social construct - that's why this happened. Nobody constructed Leelah to be a girl, she was a girl on the inside; they tried to construct her to be a boy and it didn't work out. The fact that transgender people exist means that gender is innate. I don't know how, I don't know why, I'm not a biologist or a psychologist or any of those sorts of things, but I do know that it's not a matter of whether we "need" gender identities, it's a matter of what to do with them.

The reason Leelah killed herself wasn't because she was being "forced to change genders", it was because she was not allowed to change genders (or rather sexes - transgender people change the sex to match the gender, not the other way around).

Sex is what is biological, and what can only be changed by surgery and hormones. There's a reason that gender grew into what it now is out of its earlier role as a grammar term: gender is a linguistic construct that is built into all of the ways we view society. Gender governs everything from "the man is a Mr., but the woman can be a Ms. or Mrs. depending on her marital status" to "the generic singular pronoun with indeterminate gender is 'He'" to things that don't seem directly connected to grammar rules, how we talk and think about the differences between the sexes in general.

Put more simply, surgery and hormones can turn a man into a woman or vice versa, but it takes language to change a male into a female or vice versa, right down to changing the fundamental building blocks of language like pronouns.

That's not how language works.

Firstly, you seem to be going from hard Sapir-Whorf. Which is BS and totally disproven.

Secondly, there is very little correlation between grammatical gender and sexism, or transmisogyny. Compare and contrast Farsi to German.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

She was ing bullied to death by her vile family because of their bigotry. She was forced to live as someone who she did not identify as. She was deliberately isolated from her friends and endured conversion therapy. Her life was made hell.

It's not 'retroactive affirmation' to say that she was driven to the breaking point by the ultra-transphobic attitudes held by her parents--it is a mere statement of fact. Nearly half of all trans* people have attempted to commit suicide. And simply put, her voices and the voices of people in similar situations need be given a gigantic platform--people need to be screaming for justice right now!

So maybe think before you post next time, asshole.

There are no 'facts' in this case - other than the suicide of this person obviously. Alcorn's account of the events leading up to his decision to commit suicide differs quite significantly from that given by his mother. As much as I am loathe to speak ill of the dead, why should she be believed? Why is her account neccessarily correct. People commit suicide for many reasons (indeed, she alluded to other reasons besides the supposed lack of support that she received from her parents), and occasionally embellish those reasons. From what I've read, this was obviously a highly troubled and conflicted person, and I don't see it as being beyond the bounds of probability that, having taken a dislike to her parents (as many children are wont to do, often for less than serious reasons), she decided that part of her legacy would be to blacken their names and deliver them up for public humiliation.

Of course, she could have been telling 'the truth'. But that's something we'll never know, and thus I find it a little premature and silly to pass moral judgement on her parents when we can never even be sure that she was telling the truth.

There is a time and a place for your filth and this is not it. Occam's razor isn't that hard to grasp.