Leelah Alcorn, transgender girl, kills self due to bigoted parents

[Mister Mets]

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

She was ing bullied to death by her vile family because of their bigotry. She was forced to live as someone who she did not identify as. She was deliberately isolated from her friends and endured conversion therapy. Her life was made hell.

It's not 'retroactive affirmation' to say that she was driven to the breaking point by the ultra-transphobic attitudes held by her parents--it is a mere statement of fact. Nearly half of all trans* people have attempted to commit suicide. And simply put, her voices and the voices of people in similar situations need be given a gigantic platform--people need to be screaming for justice right now!

So maybe think before you post next time, asshole.

Yeah, unless you're going to suggest that transgenderism is a mental condition, transgender individuals are basically proof that gender roles are rooted in biology to some extent. That's why radical feminists typically hate trans people.

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

Did you guys have a goddamn "who can make the stupider post" contest? Because I'm not sure who wins.

What exactly do you two disagree with in my statement?

[afleitch]

Not super-directly related to what was just being discussed (for the record: I see nothing wrong with the existence of gender roles as an abstract concept but think the boundaries between them should be as porous and as optional as possible, and I don't actually particularly care whether they're rooted in biology or not), but something else that's been weighing on me for the past couple of days with regards to all this is that such support for trans people as we do have in this country seems to default to prioritizing the needs of trans men over trans women. An example, one that might seem somewhat petty but that comes to mind for me because I've encountered it several times in the quite recent past (and yes, I admit that it's mostly tumblr where I've encountered this), is the tendency that a lot of people have to recommend contouring without explaining how to do it. People who have been socialized as male cannot be expected to either already know or somehow intuit how to contour. Hell, even a lot of people who have been socialized as female don't know how to contour. The impression that one gets is something along the lines of 'the trans people most worth giving advice and support to are people who were assigned female at birth and to some extent socialized into conventional femininity but now want to look more masculine', which completely sidelines the needs of all trans women and frankly a lot of trans men too.

The word that a lot of people (again, especially on tumblr) will use for this sort of thing is 'transmisogyny', a special type of misogyny held to specifically afflict trans women by contrast to both non-trans women (not using the adjective 'cis' in deference to some posters here who find it twee or something) and trans men, but I don't think it's necessarily helpful to treat it as qualitatively different from other forms of transphobia and misogyny when really it's more or less just both acting at once. Denying that trans women face unique challenges compared to both non-trans women and trans men is mendacious and harmful, but claiming that these challenges stem from a qualitatively unique form of oppression rather than a compound of more familiar forms strikes me as needlessly damaging to solidarity (or intersectionality, whatever your particular current of leftist and feminist activism's preferred term is for this concept).

Might be helpful here to outline some of the phrases you have used, just for the casual reader. My response is probably more directed at the forum in general because I think for some it's not self evident

I think society is more 'conducive' in both supporting and accepting trans men because that's the case  for men in general. That carries over into transitioning as well. Being physically male still gives men a physical advantage. It is a 'step up' in some minds, it's subconscious, it's not meant to be deliberately sexist but it does linger even in very open societies and open minds. It gives the power to physically dominate and to penetrate. Being a passive male partner in a same sex relationship or a dominant female in a same sex relationship carries a similar baggage, even amongst LGBT people.

Also aesthetically (because society is a bitch like that), the transition from female to male is more 'convincing'. The effects of testosterone in what it does to the framework of a male body makes transition to a female somewhat more conditional (I don't like that word but it'll do) that it is the other way around. While I know from a friend of mine that his experience of puberty and the growth of breasts and menstruation was a great difficulty for him, he knew (and all credit to the NHS here) that when he was 18, that he could begin his transition. He could tick all the medical and psychological boxes as a consenting adult. For cases such as Leelah that wait is greater in terms of what it would do to her body. However, it is also a very difficult position for society as protective and overprotective of children as it is, to deal with these issues. Sometimes it needn't involve any permanent physical alteration at all. There is certainly a very militant element within the trans community that think it has to be all or nothing.

We don't want to think of children thinking adult 'things' about sex, gender and sexuality. We somehow forget ourselves in that respect when we become adults, but we do need to 'do something about it'.

In terms of how gender is expressed by an individual, in the manner in which they carry themselves, how they dress, all the things that make life quite stressful for anyone because every time you meet someone it's an 'impression' is amplified for trans people but it shouldn't differ. You really shouldn't recommend that anyone dress or carry themselves in any other way than they see fit. With my friend,  I couldn't honestly advise on what to wear. If I see something I like, I will wear it. I did take him to a predominantly male gym, just to act as a buddy in what is quite an intimidating environment. Even I will be the butt of a gay joke, followed by a request to spot someone and then a 'how's your man?' question meant with absolute sincerity. It's daunting. But there is no other way to navigate it than to jump in.

[RR1997]

RIP

[Blue3]

Let's remember that this person was mentally ill (suicidal depression) so their point of view might not be 100% objectively trustworthy. We don't know what the parent/child relationship was like.

Obviously Leelah didn't feel loved enough, and obviously the parents didn't approve of their child being trans, but that doesn't mean the parents bullied or mistreated her.

Also, we shouldn't make a martyr over a person committing suicide. That would only encourage more confused and depressed people into suicide.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Let's remember that this person was mentally ill (suicidal depression) so their point of view might not be 100% objectively trustworthy. We don't know what the parent/child relationship was like.

Obviously Leelah didn't feel loved enough, and obviously the parents didn't approve of their child being trans, but that doesn't mean the parents bullied or mistreated her.

Also, we shouldn't make a martyr over a person committing suicide. That would only encourage more confused and depressed people into suicide.

The parents obviously don't care about their daughter enough to accept who she was. That's mistreatment right there. Leelah wasn't "confused". She was fed up with her parents and society at large treating trasngender people like sh**t.

[afleitch]

Let's remember that this person was mentally ill (suicidal depression) so their point of view might not be 100% objectively trustworthy. We don't know what the parent/child relationship was like.

Obviously Leelah didn't feel loved enough, and obviously the parents didn't approve of their child being trans, but that doesn't mean the parents bullied or mistreated her.

Also, we shouldn't make a martyr over a person committing suicide. That would only encourage more confused and depressed people into suicide.

The parents obviously don't care about their daughter enough to accept who she was. That's mistreatment right there. Leelah wasn't "confused". She was fed up with her parents and society at large treating trasngender people like sh**t.

It is clear, even stripping the hyperbole from her posts what the situation was. The mother's response to the media simply confirms that. I have no doubt that her family were not supportive for religious reasons and no doubt tried to subject her to 'Christian therapy'. She did not get the psychological help she needed to assist her in dealing with everything from affirming herself to dealing with her depression.

[Blue3]

Let's remember that this person was mentally ill (suicidal depression) so their point of view might not be 100% objectively trustworthy. We don't know what the parent/child relationship was like.

Obviously Leelah didn't feel loved enough, and obviously the parents didn't approve of their child being trans, but that doesn't mean the parents bullied or mistreated her.

Also, we shouldn't make a martyr over a person committing suicide. That would only encourage more confused and depressed people into suicide.

The parents obviously don't care about their daughter enough to accept who she was. That's mistreatment right there. Leelah wasn't "confused". She was fed up with her parents and society at large treating trasngender people like sh**t.

You're not looking at this in an objective way.

-Leelah obviously had mental health issues. Could have mentally exaggerated how "against" her parents and others actually were to her. I've known people like that in real life.

-Leelah was still a teenager. While probably not a phase, she was still young and figuring stuff out. I've known people who changed their mind on this stuff (one example: someone as a biologically-assigned female who discovered she was a lesbian as a teenager, then identified as and biologically transitioned to male in their 20's, married and divorced a woman, and is now in a partnership with another man and no longer identifies as male in their 30's, and is the head of a local LGBTQ chapter and did a diversity training at my job on these issues).

-Parents can still love you and treat you well and fairly, even if not totally accepting everything about you. That's not unconditional love, sure, but the parents had an opportunity to go on a journey of spiritual growth. And it's still possible to love someone while disagreeing with a decision they make or something they identify with. If your son identified as a Nazi, you'd probably disagree with that, but you could still love him and treat him well. You can disagree with transgenderism and still be a good, loving, caring person and parent.

-Are you really saying the right thing to do, when society isn't 100% accepting of you, is to kill yourself? "Society" doesn't 100% accept anyone, society is a construct too, by that logic we should all kill ourselves and give up on hope. It does not seem like Leelah suffered any abuse. And if they did, then that's what should be prosecuted.

Let's remember that this person was mentally ill (suicidal depression) so their point of view might not be 100% objectively trustworthy. We don't know what the parent/child relationship was like.

Obviously Leelah didn't feel loved enough, and obviously the parents didn't approve of their child being trans, but that doesn't mean the parents bullied or mistreated her.

Also, we shouldn't make a martyr over a person committing suicide. That would only encourage more confused and depressed people into suicide.

The parents obviously don't care about their daughter enough to accept who she was. That's mistreatment right there. Leelah wasn't "confused". She was fed up with her parents and society at large treating trasngender people like sh**t.

It is clear, even stripping the hyperbole from her posts what the situation was. The mother's response to the media simply confirms that. I have no doubt that her family were not supportive for religious reasons and no doubt tried to subject her to 'Christian therapy'. She did not get the psychological help she needed to assist her in dealing with everything from affirming herself to dealing with her depression.

Are we sure about that, or was that only Leelah's perception?

I know someone going through something similar right now (both trans and suicidal, among other psychological issues), who thinks the world is against them. They talked to this one person about this once, who was saying they need to see a psychiatrist before they could return to work, and their takeaway was this person is ableist and homophobic and super-conservative. When I know he's actually gay himself. This person saw somebody accidentally touching their shoulder in a crowded hallway as being aggressive and dehumanizing towards them, and made them feel unsafe.

When you're mentally unwell (suicidal depression), you don't always perceive reality clearly.




Give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't be quick to judge and condemn, or take one side. Don't go on a witch hunt.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

[Blue3]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

They weren't treating her properly because they were denying her the basic right to be the woman she was. And yes, it is.

[Blue3]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

They weren't treating her properly because they were denying her the basic right to be the woman she was. And yes, it is.

That is a radical, minority position.

It's one thing to support transgenderism. It's another to say all who have any difficulties with it are violating human rights.

People don't violate human rights by disagreeing with something, even if it's disagreeing with a human right. You are saying you'd be for violating their human rights, by saying they have no right to form their own opinion or express it to anyone.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

They weren't treating her properly because they were denying her the basic right to be the woman she was. And yes, it is.

That is a radical, minority position.

It's one thing to support transgenderism. It's another to say all who have any difficulties with it are violating human rights.

People don't violate human rights by disagreeing with something, even if it's disagreeing with a human right. You are saying you'd be for violating their human rights, by saying they have no right to form their own opinion or express it to anyone.

People violate human rights when they force their children to be something they're not and drive them to suicide.

[Blue3]

My point is going over your head. Try a response less clouded by emotion and based more on reason.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

They weren't treating her properly because they were denying her the basic right to be the woman she was. And yes, it is.

That is a radical, minority position.

It's one thing to support transgenderism. It's another to say all who have any difficulties with it are violating human rights.

People don't violate human rights by disagreeing with something, even if it's disagreeing with a human right. You are saying you'd be for violating their human rights, by saying they have no right to form their own opinion or express it to anyone.

And that's an excuse why?

I think the parents are in a difficult spot - they've lost a child they didn't understand. But that lack of understanding comes from their religiosity. Of course, Leelah might have over-reacted, but at the same time the parents are now being torn apart... so they are trying to defend themselves... naturally, so probably underplaying what they know and what they did.

[Blue3]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

They weren't treating her properly because they were denying her the basic right to be the woman she was. And yes, it is.

That is a radical, minority position.

It's one thing to support transgenderism. It's another to say all who have any difficulties with it are violating human rights.

People don't violate human rights by disagreeing with something, even if it's disagreeing with a human right. You are saying you'd be for violating their human rights, by saying they have no right to form their own opinion or express it to anyone.

And that's an excuse why?

I think the parents are in a difficult spot - they've lost a child they didn't understand. But that lack of understanding comes from their religiosity. Of course, Leelah might have over-reacted, but at the same time the parents are now being torn apart... so they are trying to defend themselves... naturally, so probably underplaying what they know and what they did.

Being radical itself isn't necessarily wrong. I explained why I think it's wrong in the very next paragraph. But it was worth pointing out who far from the mainstream that view is too.

I just created another thread on this, so this thread can remain on honoring and remembering Leelah, and any updates on the investigation.

[© tweed]

a concern I have: some states (NJ comes to mind) have banned 'conversion therapy' for under-18s.  all well and good -- but isn't this hard to enforce?  they can operate under code names... "Christian Identity Therapist", and confidentiality laws can impede efforts to figure out what goes on inside the practice.

[Joe Republic]

There are no 'facts' in this case - other than the suicide of this person obviously. Alcorn's account of the events leading up to his decision to commit suicide differs quite significantly from that given by his mother. As much as I am loathe to speak ill of the dead, why should she be believed? Why is her account neccessarily correct. People commit suicide for many reasons (indeed, she alluded to other reasons besides the supposed lack of support that she received from her parents)...

I like how you remembered part-way through typing your post.  I'm actually kind of surprised you even tried, tbh.

[Mr. Illini]

I'm late, but what an absolute tragedy. These parents can be viewed only as guilty of child abuse. Equally reprehensible is many of the comments I have read on news sources reporting on this on Facebook. We really haven't come as far as a society as we think we have when mass numbers of people are badmouthing a transgender teen who has just committed suicide.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Hopefully the kind of mentality that killed her will soon be rooted out of society. Her parents are monsters, although I believe it's a mistake to focus the blame on individual people when ideas are the real evil force at play here. Ideas kill. And the ideas responsible for this tragedy must be exterminated.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Just some of her activity from Reddit.

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[DemPGH]

I have no idea what trans people go through both internally and externally, but it's obvious that the parents completely dismissed or didn't understand that their late adolescent child was experiencing real and severe emotional and psychological difficulties, and as such should never, ever be treated this way. Minimally, I hope that lesson comes out of this. This is a serious issue that needs to be treated as such. The parents reacted as though their child was misbehaving or something, and that's disturbing.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I have no idea what trans people go through both internally and externally, but it's obvious that the parents completely dismissed or didn't understand that their late adolescent child was experiencing real and severe emotional and psychological difficulties, and as such should never, ever be treated this way. Minimally, I hope that lesson comes out of this. This is a serious issue that needs to be treated as such. The parents reacted as though their child was misbehaving or something, and that's disturbing.

If they didn't believe that transgenderism is "real", then why wouldn't they think this was a phase or some other sort of rebellious behavior?

[afleitch]

I have no idea what trans people go through both internally and externally, but it's obvious that the parents completely dismissed or didn't understand that their late adolescent child was experiencing real and severe emotional and psychological difficulties, and as such should never, ever be treated this way. Minimally, I hope that lesson comes out of this. This is a serious issue that needs to be treated as such. The parents reacted as though their child was misbehaving or something, and that's disturbing.

If they didn't believe that transgenderism is "real", then why wouldn't they think this was a phase or some other sort of rebellious behavior?

It was 'real' enough for them to oppose it and to oppose it on religious grounds.

[Maistre]

Jumping in front of a car or truck and directly putting a person at fault for a death is a pretty selfish act.

[DemPGH]

I have no idea what trans people go through both internally and externally, but it's obvious that the parents completely dismissed or didn't understand that their late adolescent child was experiencing real and severe emotional and psychological difficulties, and as such should never, ever be treated this way. Minimally, I hope that lesson comes out of this. This is a serious issue that needs to be treated as such. The parents reacted as though their child was misbehaving or something, and that's disturbing.

If they didn't believe that transgenderism is "real", then why wouldn't they think this was a phase or some other sort of rebellious behavior?

Oh, I think they thought it was "real" alright. I think they either dismissed or were ignorant of the underlying causes of what was going on, and that's tragic. They just said, "God made you a boy!" or whatever, which is a complete dismissal of the situation.