Belgian serial rapist and murderer to be euthanized

[politicus]

Belgian serial rapist and murderer Frank van den Bleeken will after several appeals be euthanized on January 11. He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas, but is at the same time convinced that he could strike again if released and does not want to be free.

The interesting aspect is that the family of the girl he murdered are dissatisfied that he gets off lightly by dying, they prefer him to rot in prison. I thought it was worth debating because it touches on whether the death penalty is the ultimate penalty or life imprisonment is in fact worse. Also several other ethical dilemmas of course.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/belgian-serial-rapist-die-granted-article-1.2064800

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/should-sisters-killer-allowed-die-4278333

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I was hoping this would be Dutroux.

[Cory]

Good.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is why the death penalty is not a deterrent.

[Beezer]

He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas

Isn't that kind of the point of prisons? He did the crime, he should do the time...simple as that really.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Good.

Actually, he's getting off easy.

[politicus]

I was hoping this would be Dutroux.

It takes a high degree of self awareness and insight to realize you are too messed up and are never going to function as a human being. Dutroux is not the type to have that.

He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas

Isn't that kind of the point of prisons? He did the crime, he should do the time...simple as that really.

The point of prison is not to make you mentally ill, which is what he has claimed happens - and has been able to convince the authorities of after psychiatric evaluation. A lot of the worst sexual offenders are themselves former victims and ruined as humans in their childhood. So there is the: What is the point of keeping a non-functioning human being alive against his will just to punish him? angle.

[freek]

The point of prison is not to make you mentally ill, which is what he has claimed happens - and has been able to convince the authorities of after psychiatric evaluation. A lot of the worst sexual offenders are themselves former victims and ruined as humans in their childhood. So there is the: What is the point of keeping a non-functioning human being alive against his will just to punish him? angle.

Indeed.
However, he is not claiming that prison made him mentally ill, but that it is keeping him that way, because Belgium refuses him treatment. He has been convicted to internment in the psychiatric unit in a prison. However, in Belgium this essentially means locking up in prison for life without any treatment, because these units are severely understaffed. The country has lost quite a few cases at the European Human Rights Court because of this. The system is being reformed, with 2 mental hospitals opening soon, but this man still prefers euthanasia. And in his case, this is probably the best option.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This doesn't sit well with me, but I can't really put my finger on what if anything specific I think is wrong with it.

[angus]

He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas

Isn't that kind of the point of prisons? He did the crime, he should do the time...simple as that really.

I suppose that it's a reasonable question to ask.  What is the point of incarceration?  I can think of at least three reasons why we might put people in jail.  First, it removes them from the the public, therefore it gives us a sense of safety.  Second, it may offer a chance to rehabilitate them.  Third, it may be punitive.  You seem to be focusing on the third reason.  If that's really the reason for putting people in jail, then we can reasonably conclude that the best option is to let him stay in jail.  If, on the other hand, we put them in jail merely to remove them so that the public need not fear them, then killing them seems like a less expensive option, and one with more finality.  Then again, if the point of incarceration is the middle reason, rehabilitation, then neither traumatizing nor killing the convict serves the purpose.  I suppose your answer to the question will inform your opinion of sentencing.  There may also be other reasons for jailing people that I'm not thinking of at the moment. 

[Insula Dei]

Major detail missing from the international media's take on this: The guy hasn't been convicted as a criminal, but interned because he is deemed a risk to society. As such, he would normally have to be treated by trained professionals. Because of lack of place in specialized institutions, he has wound up in an ordinary prison, like some 1000 other internees in Belgium. At best he will be given some medication and occasionally get to talk to a psychologist, which of course in no way is a substitute for the sort of treatment he ought to be getting. He has repeatedly made clear that he would have dropped the procedure to obtain euthanasia if he would have been given access to the care he is legally entitled to. This is about as scandalous as it gets, and it very obviously should not be allowed to happen.

[Simfan34]

Major detail missing from the international media's take on this: The guy hasn't been convicted as a criminal, but interned because he is deemed a risk to society. As such, he would normally have to be treated by trained professionals. Because of lack of place in specialized institutions, he has wound up in an ordinary prison, like some 1000 other internees in Belgium. At best he will be given some medication and occasionally get to talk to a psychologist, which of course in no way is a substitute for the sort of treatment he ought to be getting. He has repeatedly made clear that he would have dropped the procedure to obtain euthanasia if he would have been given access to the care he is legally entitled to. This is about as scandalous as it gets, and it very obviously should not be allowed to happen.

Glad to see you back, and this sounds worrying. They just want to give everyone an injection, don't they? Why wasn't he convicted?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Major detail missing from the international media's take on this: The guy hasn't been convicted as a criminal, but interned because he is deemed a risk to society. As such, he would normally have to be treated by trained professionals. Because of lack of place in specialized institutions, he has wound up in an ordinary prison, like some 1000 other internees in Belgium. At best he will be given some medication and occasionally get to talk to a psychologist, which of course in no way is a substitute for the sort of treatment he ought to be getting. He has repeatedly made clear that he would have dropped the procedure to obtain euthanasia if he would have been given access to the care he is legally entitled to. This is about as scandalous as it gets, and it very obviously should not be allowed to happen.

Ugh. This makes the story infinitely more horrendous. And also indicates awful reporting.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Major detail missing from the international media's take on this: The guy hasn't been convicted as a criminal, but interned because he is deemed a risk to society. As such, he would normally have to be treated by trained professionals. Because of lack of place in specialized institutions, he has wound up in an ordinary prison, like some 1000 other internees in Belgium. At best he will be given some medication and occasionally get to talk to a psychologist, which of course in no way is a substitute for the sort of treatment he ought to be getting. He has repeatedly made clear that he would have dropped the procedure to obtain euthanasia if he would have been given access to the care he is legally entitled to. This is about as scandalous as it gets, and it very obviously should not be allowed to happen.

Update: I'm now able to put my finger on what I think is wrong with this, and how.

[justfollowingtheelections]

He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas

Isn't that kind of the point of prisons? He did the crime, he should do the time...simple as that really.

What?  The point of prison is to rehabilitate criminals.

[Famous Mortimer]

He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas

Isn't that kind of the point of prisons? He did the crime, he should do the time...simple as that really.

What?  The point of prison is to rehabilitate criminals.

The point of life in prison is definitely not rehabilitation.

[ingemann]

He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas

Isn't that kind of the point of prisons? He did the crime, he should do the time...simple as that really.

What?  The point of prison is to rehabilitate criminals.

The point of life in prison is definitely not rehabilitation.

Yes the point there is no to punish them, but to keep them away from the general public.

As for this issue, I'm against the death penalty, but when a serial rapist and murder ask to be euthanised, even through he have mental issues, I say let's break out the nice bottle of wine and celebrate. Could the Belgian prison system be better, well I dunno, but likely yes, but this couldn't happen for someone who deserved it more and being insane is not a good enough excuse.

[politicus]

being insane is not a good enough excuse.

Someone being insane is not an excuse, it is a medical fact.

[Insula Dei]

Major detail missing from the international media's take on this: The guy hasn't been convicted as a criminal, but interned because he is deemed a risk to society. As such, he would normally have to be treated by trained professionals. Because of lack of place in specialized institutions, he has wound up in an ordinary prison, like some 1000 other internees in Belgium. At best he will be given some medication and occasionally get to talk to a psychologist, which of course in no way is a substitute for the sort of treatment he ought to be getting. He has repeatedly made clear that he would have dropped the procedure to obtain euthanasia if he would have been given access to the care he is legally entitled to. This is about as scandalous as it gets, and it very obviously should not be allowed to happen.

Glad to see you back, and this sounds worrying. They just want to give everyone an injection, don't they? Why wasn't he convicted?

In Belgium the court can either convict you to a fixed jail term or judge that you're not responsible for your acts and recommend that you be interned for an indeterminate amount of time to undergo treatment. If you ever find yourself standing trial in Belgium and your lawyer suggests pleading insanity, look for another lawyer because 1) you'll most likely still wind up in a normal prison and 2) 'indeterminate' often winds up meaning 'far longer than if you'd actually been convicted'.

Anyway, this little show has been called off for now because the doctor expected to carry out the execution has gotten cold feet and withdrawn from the whole sordid affair.

[ingemann]

being insane is not a good enough excuse.

Someone being insane is not an excuse, it is a medical fact.

Insanity may be a medical fact, but here's the thing it doesn't make you innocent in the act. This guy was able to camoflage himself, which means he was aware that what he did was wrong. It's the same reason we throw sociopaths in prisons, because they know right from wrong. So while he should have gotten treatment, it doesn't make less horrible or evil.

My cousin had compulsions to hurt others, he did not do it, he did not hide it, he sought treatment.

[Murica!]

Belgium's Justice Minister said that he won't be.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

He claims prison gives him "unbearable" traumas

Isn't that kind of the point of prisons? He did the crime, he should do the time...simple as that really.

What?  The point of prison is to rehabilitate criminals.

The point of life in prison is definitely not rehabilitation.

in a healthy society, it is.