French terror attacks

[Tetro Kornbluth]

So, free speech is okay but only when it preaches diversity and tolerance. Sorry, but that isn't free speech. Certain communities need to accept that when they move to a Western nation they will have to listen to people who disagree with them.

How are they going to accept this? By forcing them?

[bgwah]

So, free speech is okay but only when it preaches diversity and tolerance. Sorry, but that isn't free speech. Certain communities need to accept that when they move to a Western nation they will have to listen to people who disagree with them.

How are they going to accept this? By forcing them?

This is a low quality rebuttal, even for you. Try again.

[Beezer]

So, free speech is okay but only when it preaches diversity and tolerance. Sorry, but that isn't free speech. Certain communities need to accept that when they move to a Western nation they will have to listen to people who disagree with them.

How are they going to accept this? By forcing them?

Nobody should be forced to adopt any sort of views. Just don't pay any attention to their concerns when it comes to the prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

So, free speech is okay but only when it preaches diversity and tolerance. Sorry, but that isn't free speech. Certain communities need to accept that when they move to a Western nation they will have to listen to people who disagree with them.

How are they going to accept this? By forcing them?

This is a low quality rebuttal, even for you. Try again.

As if I was aiming for quality

But my point stands, how will such people be made to accept such attitudes? The law is a rather blunt instrument and can't really change men's souls.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Everyone please show some decency. This isn't the place to continue old debates and reignite clashes of civilization.

[politicus]

Yes, the most important thing here is for us to be concerned with hurting the terrosists' feelings.

No one are concerned with the terrorists feelings, some of us are concerned with how the far right (ab)uses this and how ISIS may abuse a stupid reaction to gain sympathy among (minor parts of) the Muslim community in Europe and the Middle East.

If someone sees an equivalence between expressing an idea and what ISIS does, there's no reason to cater to them. These "Muslim moderates" who might become terrorists if we make fun of their religion or kill too many people with drones, if they actually exist, they are not moderates.

Free speech is an issue where you need to draw a line in the sand.  You shouldn't allow anyone to chill free speech with threats of violence.  That means you can't silence people because you think they're stupid, or unhelpful, or extreme, or racist, or anything.  We need to have a marketplace of ideas where everyone is on an equal footing.  That means Muslims can't keep bullying people.  So, I think the media should publish offensive cartoons in solidarity.  They can do this to a few brave outlets, but they can't do this to everyone.

I am not talking about "moderates" here,

I care more about free speech than most people and generally support going quite far to defend it, but there is a time and place for everything. Honouring the memory of witty, sophisticated, talented humanists with a reenactment of the crude and divisive Muhammed-crisis would be wrong.
This is a time to stand united against the Jihadists and demonstrate our contempt for them by mocking them in a clever and funny way in the spirit of the dead masters.

[politicus]

Everyone please show some decency. This isn't the place to continue old debates and reignite clashes of civilization.

I agree. I think we might have to divide it into a memorial and factual update thread here and a "what should be done" thread on political debate.

[Simfan34]

Yes, the most important thing here is for us to be concerned with hurting the terrorists' feelings.

Yes, but we must remember that Muslims=/=terrorists. CrabCake is right- satirise the terrorists, not the whole religion. Sadly, I am seeing some right wing outlets in the US paint the magazine as a anti-Muslim outfit that affirms their prejudiced views- never mind their strident anti-Christian views.

While it does seem their views were actually at times indeed rather disagreeable, the whole Voltairean maxim of "I may not agree with what you're saying but I shall defend your right to say it" truly applies here. This is a tragedy that strikes at all people who believe in freedom of expression, not just those who agreed with them.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

This is disgusting and abhorrent in every sense of the word. Hopefully those responsible will be brought to justice and this tragic episode doesn't become the rallying call for Islamophobic, far-right bigots that it unfortunately has all the potential to become, given the circumstances and the media narrative thus far. The last thing we need in a situation like this is the further sowing of hard feelings and hatreds between those who have more in common than they might otherwise think at the moment.

Agreed.

There's a difference between defending the freedom of speech and acting irresponsibly/indecently as an organ of the press. No one in this thread is calling for the government to block the publication of the cartoon in question but I hope that we'd all agree that it would be irresponsible, indecent and disrespectful to festoon the carton beneath the banner of the New York Times or the Guardian or Le Monde. I, for one, would like to think that that the virtues of the freedom of the press do not reside in its protection of clownish/petulant behavior.

[afleitch]

But my point stands, how will such people be made to accept such attitudes? The law is a rather blunt instrument and can't really change men's souls.

True, but you can laugh at them. In fact we need to laugh at them more.

EDIT: Cartoonist Steve Bell sums it up for me; "We've got to stand up for the right to take the piss out of these monsters, these idiots, these fools, these posturing maniacs who strut around in their black gear as a kind of death cult trying to frighten us all."

[TDAS04]

Not all Muslims are bad people, and Muslims should not be unfairly treated, but if people are getting killed simply for insulting a religion and its sacred stuff, people won't necessarily view that particular religion positively.  People in the West should stand up for the right to insult any religion.  People don't deserve to die because they disrespect Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, etc.  Nothing and no one is so scared that they should be immune from free speech in a secular society.

[bedstuy]

Yes, the most important thing here is for us to be concerned with hurting the terrosists' feelings.

No one are concerned with the terrorists feelings, some of us are concerned with how the far right (ab)uses this and how ISIS may abuse a stupid reaction to gain sympathy among (minor parts of) the Muslim community in Europe and the Middle East.

If someone sees an equivalence between expressing an idea and what ISIS does, there's no reason to cater to them. These "Muslim moderates" who might become terrorists if we make fun of their religion or kill too many people with drones, if they actually exist, they are not moderates.

Free speech is an issue where you need to draw a line in the sand.  You shouldn't allow anyone to chill free speech with threats of violence.  That means you can't silence people because you think they're stupid, or unhelpful, or extreme, or racist, or anything.  We need to have a marketplace of ideas where everyone is on an equal footing.  That means Muslims can't keep bullying people.  So, I think the media should publish offensive cartoons in solidarity.  They can do this to a few brave outlets, but they can't do this to everyone.

I am not talking about "moderates" here,

I care more about free speech than most people and generally support going quite far to defend it, but there is a time and place for everything. Honouring the memory of witty, sophisticated, talented humanists with a reenactment of the crude and divisive Muhammed-crisis would be wrong.
This is a time to stand united against the Jihadists and demonstrate our contempt for them by mocking them in a clever and funny way in the spirit of the dead masters.

If we have to censor ourselves to stand united with someone, we shouldn't do that.  If free speech is divisive, we've got a long way to go as a society.  This is one of those areas where Europe is far behind the United States.  And, by the way, there's nothing wrong with insulting a religion or making fun of Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammed, or L. Ron Hubbard. 

If we make it taboo as a society to offend one religion because its adherents constantly use violence and constantly play the victim card, we reward their tactics and we legitimize their behavior.  We also insult Muslims because we turn them into infantile victims who can't participate in the marketplace of ideas without special rules.  That's the problem here.  Making fun of Islam should be no different from making fun of libertarianism or socialism.  Until it is, we need people like this poking them with a stick. 

[Boris]

Pretty stark contrast between mass rallies occurring in Paris and the total lockdown of Boston, despite perpetrators on the loose

[politicus]

Yes, the most important thing here is for us to be concerned with hurting the terrosists' feelings.

No one are concerned with the terrorists feelings, some of us are concerned with how the far right (ab)uses this and how ISIS may abuse a stupid reaction to gain sympathy among (minor parts of) the Muslim community in Europe and the Middle East.

If someone sees an equivalence between expressing an idea and what ISIS does, there's no reason to cater to them. These "Muslim moderates" who might become terrorists if we make fun of their religion or kill too many people with drones, if they actually exist, they are not moderates.

Free speech is an issue where you need to draw a line in the sand.  You shouldn't allow anyone to chill free speech with threats of violence.  That means you can't silence people because you think they're stupid, or unhelpful, or extreme, or racist, or anything.  We need to have a marketplace of ideas where everyone is on an equal footing.  That means Muslims can't keep bullying people.  So, I think the media should publish offensive cartoons in solidarity.  They can do this to a few brave outlets, but they can't do this to everyone.

I am not talking about "moderates" here,

I care more about free speech than most people and generally support going quite far to defend it, but there is a time and place for everything. Honouring the memory of witty, sophisticated, talented humanists with a reenactment of the crude and divisive Muhammed-crisis would be wrong.
This is a time to stand united against the Jihadists and demonstrate our contempt for them by mocking them in a clever and funny way in the spirit of the dead masters.

If we have to censor ourselves to stand united with someone, we shouldn't do that.  If free speech is divisive, we've got a long way to go as a society.  This is one of those areas where Europe is far behind the United States.  And, by the way, there's nothing wrong with insulting a religion or making fun of Jesus, or Moses, or Mohammed, or L. Ron Hubbard.  

If we make it taboo as a society to offend one religion because its adherents constantly use violence and constantly play the victim card, we reward their tactics and we legitimize their behavior.  We also insult Muslims because we turn them into infantile victims who can't participate in the marketplace of ideas without special rules.  That's the problem here.  Making fun of Islam should be no different from making fun of libertarianism or socialism.  Until it is, we need people like this poking them with a stick.  

All that does not take into consideration who the dead were and what they represented. Which is important in this case.

I basically agree with you in all of the above, but this is the wrong time to do it in that way. There is no point in doing it the crude and divisive way right now. Nothing will be gained.

What we debated was the best way to react, not what people should be "allowed" to do. The media are obviously allowed to react as they prefer. Some of us just hope they do it in a non-divisive, clever, funny way to honour the dead and promote unity.

[Cory]

As if I was aiming for quality

But my point stands, how will such people be made to accept such attitudes? The law is a rather blunt instrument and can't really change men's souls.

Maybe they shouldn't be there if they "can't accept" freedom of speech and expression.

[Simfan34]

Pretty stark contrast between mass rallies occurring in Paris and the total lockdown of Boston, despite perpetrators on the loose

Well that was a mass act of terror that quickly became unpredictable, while this is a more of targeted attack.

[Alcon]

Yes, but we must remember that Muslims=/=terrorists. CrabCake is right- satirise the terrorists, not the whole religion. Sadly, I am seeing some right wing outlets in the US paint the magazine as a anti-Muslim outfit that affirms their prejudiced views- never mind their strident anti-Christian views.

I get what you're trying to say here, but I think we have to be really careful with the distinction between criticizing Islam and criticizing "all Muslims."  These are way different ideas, and I often see people treating them as the same.  There are obviously some Muslims with totally unproblematic theological views.  Does that make it unfair to criticize Islam generally?  I don't think so.  In some cases, the problematic theological views are majority views in many (or even most) countries.  I think it's totally reasonable -- even responsible -- to note that these being common views doesn't make them universal.  Ditto for noting that most Muslims who hold theologically troubling views never commit acts of violence.  But I've also seen people take this further, and claim that troubling theological views are rare because few people commit violence (demonstrably untrue); or that these views have nothing to do with religion (ridiculous); or that it's unfair to criticize a religion for beliefs in it that aren't completely universal (totally impractical).

(edit: yikes, that was a long paragraph.  I hope you get the general idea...)

[swl]

Absolutely horrible. The cowards and terrorists behind this need to be shot or locked up forever.

However, at the same time, I hope (a futile hope, mind you) that people don't overreact respond with hatred, intolerance and mindless knee-jerk xenophobia. I'm sure the last thing these free-thinkers would have wanted is for people to embrace Panzergirl's hatred and racism. Alas, it's France and not Canada.

Yes. Today more than ever, we need to come together as a people. All those who believe in the values of liberty and justice - the values these people died for - must join. The barbarians will have won if communities continue jumping at each other's throats.

At some point, the sane majority, neither terrorist nor racist, will have to do something...

[Antonio the Sixth]

I've been asked to lock this thread in order to prevent it from devolving into a nasty polemic. This is not what this thread should be about. While I'd like to avoid going so far, please try to show some respect and dignity.

[BaconBacon96]

This is just awful. Absolutely horrendous.

[bgwah]

I've been asked to lock this thread in order to prevent it from devolving into a nasty polemic. This is not what this thread should be about. While I'd like to avoid going so far, please try to show some respect and dignity.

Ridiculous. You should be embarrassed.

[ElectionsGuy]

What an awful attack. Freedom of the press and rejection of political correctness just took a blow today. RIP to all 12 people who died.

[politicus]

Everyone please show some decency. This isn't the place to continue old debates and reignite clashes of civilization.

I agree. I think we might have to divide it into a memorial and factual update thread here and a "what should be done" thread on political debate.

What do you think? Should we move thread? This is not going all that well.

[Mr. Morden]

Various news outlets reporting that the identities of the three individuals are known to authorities.  Two brothers, age 34 and 32, born in Paris, and the third age 18, nationality unknown.

[Alcon]

I've been asked to lock this thread in order to prevent it from devolving into a nasty polemic. This is not what this thread should be about. While I'd like to avoid going so far, please try to show some respect and dignity.

Exactly what are you saying is off-limits here?  Do you want us to only discuss the facts of the case, and not the cultural/political issues underlying it?  I'm totally fine with splitting the discussion, but I'm a little annoyed by the idea that discussing those issues is disrespectful or undignified, even when it's in a thread about the attack.  I also imagine the people who were killed in this attack would be even more annoyed by that sentiment than I am.