French terror attacks

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is absolutely horrific... My thoughts and prayers go out to all those who passed away, who were injured, and to their families and friends.

Also, while I'm no fan of terrorism of any flavour, this is by no means an excuse to jump on the whole "Ugh! I hate Muslims! All Muslims are terrorists!" bandwagon.

I'm fine with people not wanting to blame Muslims, but I find it disgusting, when people hear several people have been killed by two Muslim terrorist and the first they say is "oh no I hope they won't blame Muslims for this", even before anybody have blamed Muslims as a group for this.

French Muslims have fully expressed their sorrow and disgust. They really can't be faulted for anything this time.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Alice Petrén, foreign news Swedish Radio, says that the victims was not innocent, because Charlie Hebdo had publicised the Mohammed Cartoons.

She later say it was just a wrong choice of words*.

http://www.bt.dk/udland/svensk-journalist-i-modvind-sagde-i-liveradio-at-charlie-hebdo-ofrene-ikke-er-uskyl (in Danish)

*https://twitter.com/intent/follow?screen_name=alicepetren (in Swedish)

Absolutely sickening.

[Tender Branson]

"Mosque in Le Mans attacked with grenades."

Oh no. No. No. No. Please no. Not that. No.

Yeah that suxx, but it was predictable that not all people would remain calm and do nothing.

And Le Pen even wants to re-introduce the death penalty ...

As if these terrorists give a damn about the death penalty.

[Antonio the Sixth]

"Mosque in Le Mans attacked with grenades."

Oh no. No. No. No. Please no. Not that. No.

Yeah that suxx, but it was predictable that not all people would remain calm and do nothing.

And Le Pen even wants to re-introduce the death penalty ...

As if these terrorists give a damn about the death penalty.

If this is how we react, they will have won.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

People gathering in Martin Place in Sydney.

[Insula Dei]

I'm glad to learn from our U.S. posters that the real legacy of Wolinski and Cabu is thoughtful discussion of the deeper social patterns underlying this attack (, I'd have thought their legacy was mainly 'épater les bourgeois',) but surely the main question you'd have to ask hasn't anything to do with 'freedom of speech' or 'islamofascism', but with why this sort of thing just keeps happening in France and not, for example, in Germany? Could it be that there's something awry with French society and its utter failure to achieve some degree of intergration for its sizeable North African minority? Could it be that laicité isn't the soundest foundation for a multi-ethnic society? If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm glad to learn from our U.S. posters that the real legacy of Wolinski and Cabu is thoughtful discussion of the deeper social patterns underlying this attack (, I'd have thought their legacy was mainly 'épater les bourgeois',) but surely the main question you'd have to ask hasn't anything to do with 'freedom of speech' or 'islamofascism', but with why this sort of thing just keeps happening in France and not, for example, in Germany? Could it be that there's something awry with French society and its utter failure to achieve some degree of intergration for its sizeable North African minority? Could it be that laicité isn't the soundest foundation for a multi-ethnic society? If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

The legacy of Charb and Cabu is fighting for freedom of expression, speaking out against bigotry and stupidity, and promoting humanistic values. Their thought and reflection were infinitely more articulate than you could ever hope to be. I understand that lot of people like you are too stupid to get it, but I hoped you could shut up for at least a couple days after this tragedy.

[Insula Dei]

I'm glad to learn from our U.S. posters that the real legacy of Wolinski and Cabu is thoughtful discussion of the deeper social patterns underlying this attack (, I'd have thought their legacy was mainly 'épater les bourgeois',) but surely the main question you'd have to ask hasn't anything to do with 'freedom of speech' or 'islamofascism', but with why this sort of thing just keeps happening in France and not, for example, in Germany? Could it be that there's something awry with French society and its utter failure to achieve some degree of intergration for its sizeable North African minority? Could it be that laicité isn't the soundest foundation for a multi-ethnic society? If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

The legacy of Charb and Cabu is fighting for freedom of expression, speaking out against bigotry and stupidity, and promoting humanistic values. Their thought and reflection were infinitely more articulate than you could ever hope to be. I understand that lot of people like you are too stupid to get it, but I hoped you could shut up for at least a couple days after this tragedy.

Just to be clear here: what I posted is by no means meant to demean the accomplishments of people like Wolinski or Cabu and their generation, whose specific brand of irreverence has been a major contribution to French culture and to Western European culture in general. (It's important to remember that these people have been very influential abroad as well.) But I do legitimately think that there are major, major, major issues with the way the French have chosen to deal with the mass migration that all European countries have had to deal with over the past 50 years. And if this isn't a moment to be aware of the gigantic problem that is brewing under the surface of your society, then when is? 

[ingemann]

I'm glad to learn from our U.S. posters that the real legacy of Wolinski and Cabu is thoughtful discussion of the deeper social patterns underlying this attack (, I'd have thought their legacy was mainly 'épater les bourgeois',) but surely the main question you'd have to ask hasn't anything to do with 'freedom of speech' or 'islamofascism', but with why this sort of thing just keeps happening in France and not, for example, in Germany? Could it be that there's something awry with French society and its utter failure to achieve some degree of intergration for its sizeable North African minority? Could it be that laicité isn't the soundest foundation for a multi-ethnic society? If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

The explanation could also be the group of immigrants, Turks/Kurds versus Arabs/Arabised Africans. There's a lot of problems with Turkish immigrants, but in general their relationship with Islam is more ethno-religious than the Arabs embrace of Islamic universalism.   

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm glad to learn from our U.S. posters that the real legacy of Wolinski and Cabu is thoughtful discussion of the deeper social patterns underlying this attack (, I'd have thought their legacy was mainly 'épater les bourgeois',) but surely the main question you'd have to ask hasn't anything to do with 'freedom of speech' or 'islamofascism', but with why this sort of thing just keeps happening in France and not, for example, in Germany? Could it be that there's something awry with French society and its utter failure to achieve some degree of intergration for its sizeable North African minority? Could it be that laicité isn't the soundest foundation for a multi-ethnic society? If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

The legacy of Charb and Cabu is fighting for freedom of expression, speaking out against bigotry and stupidity, and promoting humanistic values. Their thought and reflection were infinitely more articulate than you could ever hope to be. I understand that lot of people like you are too stupid to get it, but I hoped you could shut up for at least a couple days after this tragedy.

Just to be clear here: what I posted is by no means meant to demean the accomplishments of people like Wolinski or Cabu and their generation, whose specific brand of irreverence has been a major contribution to French culture and to Western European culture in general. (It's important to remember that these people have been very influential abroad as well.) But I do legitimately think that there are major, major, major issues with the way the French have chosen to deal with the mass migration that all European countries have had to deal with over the past 50 years. And if this isn't a moment to be aware of the gigantic problem that is brewing under the surface of your society, then when is? 

I get that, and you might well be right. I'd just appreciate, as a Frenchman and as a person who admired these great minds, you could wait a couple days before being a dick about it

[Middle-aged Europe]

I'm glad to learn from our U.S. posters that the real legacy of Wolinski and Cabu is thoughtful discussion of the deeper social patterns underlying this attack (, I'd have thought their legacy was mainly 'épater les bourgeois',) but surely the main question you'd have to ask hasn't anything to do with 'freedom of speech' or 'islamofascism', but with why this sort of thing just keeps happening in France and not, for example, in Germany? Could it be that there's something awry with French society and its utter failure to achieve some degree of intergration for its sizeable North African minority? Could it be that laicité isn't the soundest foundation for a multi-ethnic society? If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

The explanation could also be the group of immigrants, Turks/Kurds versus Arabs/Arabised Africans. There's a lot of problems with Turkish immigrants, but in general their relationship with Islam is more ethno-religious than the Arabs embrace of Islamic universalism.  

It is sometimes noted that Germany lacks the banlieue-style "ghettoization" you can witness in France. Immigrant populations are not so much concentrated in the suburbs, but in downtown areas. Take the borough of Kreuzberg in Berlin, for example. Traditionally, it has a extremely large share of residents of Turkish descent. It the same time however, the borough is subject to a process of gentrification with rising rents and an influx of somewhat wealthier citizens who move to the area. So, I'd say there's generally less segregation than in France.

Germany also lacks a party like the Front National, who frequently reaches double-digit results in national elections (or at least it did until the arrival of the AfD). This is probably due to a somewhat different political culture as a result of World War II. Maybe this contributed to a less polarized and more consensus-oriented immigration debate, and generated a climate where immigrants tended to be embraced by society rather than to be excluded (relatively speaking compared to France, of course).

Also, I'm not sure to what extent people of Muslim origin are integrated in the higher levels of society and politics in France. The SPD's secretary-general is partly of Iranian descent, the parents of the German Green Party's national co-chairman came from Turkey etc.

[swl]

It's difficult to say. Again from my experience, I find a country like the Netherlands more racist than France. Germany does not have FN, but France does not specifically anti-Muslims demonstrations or parties (like PEGIDA in Germany or the Pim Fortuyn list/PVV in the Netherlands). I think we lack information to compare among countries.

Insulai Dei, you are trying to single out one explanation, but there can be many other reasons, like the one cited by ingemman. Another possible reason for Al-Qaeda to strike France and not Germany may be that France is involved against Al-Qaeda in Africa and ISIS in the Middle East while Germany is not. Remember that 10 years ago they striked the two European countries (UK and Spain) that were the most involved in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Finally, in that specific case, the attackers has a clearly defined target and did not kill random people. If you look at Al-Qaeda magazine (https://info.publicintelligence.net/InspireWinter2013.pdf), the boss of Charlie Hebdo has been on the wanted list for a while:

[Middle-aged Europe]

Germany does not have FN, but France does not have anti-Muslims demonstrations like PEGIDA, or specifically anti-Muslims party like the PVV.

Pegida is a very recent phenomenon though and it is primarily concentrated on Dresden, a place which almost doesn't have any Muslims. Pegida spin-offs in cities with big Muslim populations like Berlin have been bombed (no pun intended) so far... although Pegida would almost certainly claim that people are too afraid to protest against Islam in those cities.

So, other things factor into here, like Saxony being a generally conservative state (25 years of rule by a CDU which is considered to be one of the more right-wing state chapters within the larger party) in a region which almost traditionally has problems with neo-Nazism, despite almost no immigrants living there (East Germany).

[swl]

The next edition of Charlie Hebdo will come out next week and a million copies will be printed, the magazine’s lawyer has said. It’s weekly circulation is normally around 45,000.

Meanwhile, Francois Hollande is meeting the leaders of the different parties. He met Sarkozy today and published his planning for tomorrow: 10 h Dupont Aignan; 10 h 30 Marine Le Pen; 11 h Hue; Bayrou 11 h 30. Afternoon: Mélenchon et Chevènement

And a few images:






Seen today in the Netherlands:

[Antonio the Sixth]

The next edition of Charlie Hebdo will come out next week and a million copies will be printed, the magazine’s lawyer has said. It’s weekly circulation is normally around 45,000.

That's the right thing to do. I saw Patrick Pelloux on TV a couple hours ago. He was devastated, lost most of his friends, but was determined to continue. "They can't have won" he said.

[Tender Branson]

The next edition of Charlie Hebdo will come out next week and a million copies will be printed, the magazine’s lawyer has said. It’s weekly circulation is normally around 45,000.

That's the right thing to do. I saw Patrick Pelloux on TV a couple hours ago. He was devastated, lost most of his friends, but was determined to continue. "They can't have won" he said.

Good to hear.

When they continue, they should probably set up a security entrance system like they have it in the courts or in our parliament building, which you can't even enter if you have heavy weapons.

[bgwah]

I'm glad to learn from our U.S. posters that the real legacy of Wolinski and Cabu is thoughtful discussion of the deeper social patterns underlying this attack (, I'd have thought their legacy was mainly 'épater les bourgeois',) but surely the main question you'd have to ask hasn't anything to do with 'freedom of speech' or 'islamofascism', but with why this sort of thing just keeps happening in France and not, for example, in Germany? Could it be that there's something awry with French society and its utter failure to achieve some degree of intergration for its sizeable North African minority? Could it be that laicité isn't the soundest foundation for a multi-ethnic society? If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

The legacy of Charb and Cabu is fighting for freedom of expression, speaking out against bigotry and stupidity, and promoting humanistic values. Their thought and reflection were infinitely more articulate than you could ever hope to be. I understand that lot of people like you are too stupid to get it, but I hoped you could shut up for at least a couple days after this tragedy.

And an example of Antonio's articulate and totally not stupid expression can be found in my signature.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Congrats.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Guys, guys, guys.... all this commemoration and mourning distracts us from the REAL issue

...which is how we can insert this event into a narrative which gives strength to our political views.

[Insula Dei]

It's difficult to say. Again from my experience, I find a country like the Netherlands more racist than France. Germany does not have FN, but France does not specifically anti-Muslims demonstrations or parties (like PEGIDA in Germany or the Pim Fortuyn list/PVV in the Netherlands). I think we lack information to compare among countries.

Insulai Dei, you are trying to single out one explanation, but there can be many other reasons, like the one cited by ingemman. Another possible reason for Al-Qaeda to strike France and not Germany may be that France is involved against Al-Qaeda in Africa and ISIS in the Middle East while Germany is not. Remember that 10 years ago they striked the two European countries (UK and Spain) that were the most involved in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Finally, in that specific case, the attackers has a clearly defined target and did not kill random people. If you look at Al-Qaeda magazine (https://info.publicintelligence.net/InspireWinter2013.pdf), the boss of Charlie Hebdo has been on the wanted list for a while:

I'm not really trying to single out any one explanation for this specific incident; there undoubtedly are many, and if, as does not seem unlikely, this attack has been in part coordinated from Yemen that obviously makes it a rather special case. But the big question is how it is that it is so much more easy for French-Algerian youngsters to radicalize than for their German-Turkish (or even Pakistani-British) peers. Part of that explanation are real cultural differences between the North African community in France and the Turkish or Kurdish communities in Germany, part of the explanation is a comparison of the rates of youth unemployment between the two countries. But I'm very much convinced that there's a massive difference between France and most other European nations in the way immigrants are dealt with, of which the spatial segregation cited above is a consequence rather than a cause. And one of the main reasons for this difference is always going to be exactly the universalist subtractionary neutrality that has been an ideal in French thought since Voltaire perhaps. The nation that once thought that it stretched all the way down to the Sahara, has paradoxically proven especially incapable of integrating new populations into its social tissues, why is this?

How many incidents of violence roughly comparable to this one have there been over the last two years? Mohammed Merah, Mehdi Nemmouche, the incidents of last month, today's shooting of a policewoman,... There's something about France that triggers this sort of thing and not thinking about what that might be doesn't strike me as specifically respectful of its victims.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If this attack is about anything other than some ridiculous losers donning a balaclava and a kalashnikov and yelling the takbir in a Paris street, it's surely about that.

Though lets not forget that it is definitely about that and in those exact words.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

A useful distinction to make - and this is a general point rather than one aimed at any recent post in this thread - is between Islam (the religion) and Islamism (the political ideology).

[Antonio the Sixth]

A useful distinction to make - and this is a general point rather than one aimed at any recent post in this thread - is between Islam (the religion) and Islamism (the political ideology).

Most of us know how to make this distinction. Those who don't are probably a lost cause at this point.

[Tender Branson]

Back to the hunt:

Apparently, the 2 have now barricaded themselves in a house in Longpont, after the police cut off the highway they were driving on and deployed helicopters.

There's now a massive police and SWAT force heading to Longpont (or already is there):

[Tender Branson]

Slight correction:

The latest info is that they have moved into the forest near Longpont.