Chomsky video on Charlie Hedbo and "defense of free speech"

[© tweed]

this is from 2 years ago, after the mag was in the news for publishing cartoon depictions of Mohammed and other Muslims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x-FD6leCKU&feature=youtu.be

it's hard to hear him... his point is that Hedbo is being congratulated as a beacon for "free speech" as they published caricatures of Muslims, but if they had published a caricature of a Jew they'd be prosecuted under the anti-anti-Semitism laws. rendering French "self-congratulation" over their defense of "free speech" "fakery" and "fraud".

[politicus]

this is from 2 years ago, after the mag was in the news for publishing cartoon depictions of Mohammed and other Muslims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x-FD6leCKU&feature=youtu.be

it's hard to hear him... his point is that Hedbo is being congratulated as a beacon for "free speech" as they published caricatures of Muslims, but if they had published a caricature of a Jew they'd be prosecuted under the anti-anti-Semitism laws. rendering French "self-congratulation" over their defense of "free speech" "fakery" and "fraud".

No offence, but why should that be interesting ?

[Famous Mortimer]

Comparing all Jews to Mohammed is a ridiculous comparison. If They drew Moses, no one would care. If they drew Moses getting sexed in the butt, people would complain but nowhere near what Muslims do.

[© tweed]

Comparing all Jews to Mohammed is a ridiculous comparison. If They drew Moses, no one would care. If they drew Moses getting sexed in the butt, people would complain but nowhere near what Muslims do.

Hedbo drew caricatures.   caricatures are by definition drawn to exaggerate (usually) physical characteristics.  

publishing a drawing of a Jew w/ a scraggly beard, hook nose, eagerly clutching bag of gold would likely be prosecuted as the equivalent of hate speech in France and much of Europe.

[politicus]

Comparing all Jews to Mohammed is a ridiculous comparison. If They drew Moses, no one would care. If they drew Moses getting sexed in the butt, people would complain but nowhere near what Muslims do.

Hedbo drew caricatures.   caricatures are by definition drawn to exaggerate (usually) physical characteristics.  

publishing a drawing of a Jew w/ a scraggly beard, hook nose, eagerly clutching bag of gold would likely be prosecuted as the equivalent of hate speech in France and much of Europe.

Caricatures are not evaluated in the way you think in Europe (there may be a couple of exceptions, but France is not one of them). There are much wider limits for what you can draw than write.

[MaxQue]

Comparing all Jews to Mohammed is a ridiculous comparison. If They drew Moses, no one would care. If they drew Moses getting sexed in the butt, people would complain but nowhere near what Muslims do.

Hedbo drew caricatures.   caricatures are by definition drawn to exaggerate (usually) physical characteristics.  

publishing a drawing of a Jew w/ a scraggly beard, hook nose, eagerly clutching bag of gold would likely be prosecuted as the equivalent of hate speech in France and much of Europe.

I'm pretty sure Charlie Hebdo drew Jews that way more than a few times, through, invalidating your point.

[Sbane]

I do have to mention that a lot of the caricatures drawn by Charlie Hebdo are pretty damn disturbing. It was quite hard to view, actually. I thought stuff like that ended in the 1950's, but I was mistaken. I am all for free speech, but the guy was a dick.

[politicus]

I do have to mention that a lot of the caricatures drawn by Charlie Hebdo are pretty damn disturbing. It was quite hard to view, actually. I thought stuff like that ended in the 1950's, but I was mistaken. I am all for free speech, but the guy was a dick.

It is a magazine, not the name of a guy.

[danny]

it's hard to hear him... his point is that Hedbo is being congratulated as a beacon for "free speech" as they published caricatures of Muslims, but if they had published a caricature of a Jew they'd be prosecuted under the anti-anti-Semitism laws. rendering French "self-congratulation" over their defense of "free speech" "fakery" and "fraud".

You mean like this?


Edit: I removed a picture that wasn't by Charlie habdo that I posted by mistake.

[Sbane]

I do have to mention that a lot of the caricatures drawn by Charlie Hebdo are pretty damn disturbing. It was quite hard to view, actually. I thought stuff like that ended in the 1950's, but I was mistaken. I am all for free speech, but the guy was a dick.

It is a magazine, not the name of a guy.

Huh, for whatever reason I thought the editor's name was Charlie and I assumed that was his last name. I am aware the name of the magazine is Charlie Hebdo.

In any case, I obviously don't get their art because they call themselves anti-racist, but print extremely racist caricatures.

[MaxQue]

I do have to mention that a lot of the caricatures drawn by Charlie Hebdo are pretty damn disturbing. It was quite hard to view, actually. I thought stuff like that ended in the 1950's, but I was mistaken. I am all for free speech, but the guy was a dick.

It is a magazine, not the name of a guy.

Huh, for whatever reason I thought the editor's name was Charlie and I assumed that was his last name. I am aware the name of the magazine is Charlie Hebdo.

In any case, I obviously don't get their art because they call themselves anti-racist, but print extremely racist caricatures.

Charlie Hebdo is very anti-religious.

[politicus]

I do have to mention that a lot of the caricatures drawn by Charlie Hebdo are pretty damn disturbing. It was quite hard to view, actually. I thought stuff like that ended in the 1950's, but I was mistaken. I am all for free speech, but the guy was a dick.

It is a magazine, not the name of a guy.

Huh, for whatever reason I thought the editor's name was Charlie and I assumed that was his last name. I am aware the name of the magazine is Charlie Hebdo.

In any case, I obviously don't get their art because they call themselves anti-racist, but print extremely racist caricatures.

It just means Weekly Charlie. I think Americans have a tendency to evaluate whether something is racist by formal criteria, like certain words and stereotypes are racist by definition, whereas Europeans judge by the intention and context.

[Famous Mortimer]

Political cartoonists in America crap their pants anytime a Black politician is in the news because it's impossible to draw a caricature of a non-White person without being called racist. They lucked out with Obama who I guess has big ears kinda? Anyway, that's how they always draw Obama, just a guy with huge ears.

[ObserverIE]

it's hard to hear him... his point is that Hedbo is being congratulated as a beacon for "free speech" as they published caricatures of Muslims, but if they had published a caricature of a Jew they'd be prosecuted under the anti-anti-Semitism laws. rendering French "self-congratulation" over their defense of "free speech" "fakery" and "fraud".

You mean like this?

The first image isn't from Charlie Hebdo; it's the work of a far-right cartoonist associated with the not-at-all-anti-Semitic Dieudonné.

[Comrade Funk]

Chomsky is a self hating Jew who will blame nearly everything on the West.

[bgwah]

I do have to mention that a lot of the caricatures drawn by Charlie Hebdo are pretty damn disturbing. It was quite hard to view, actually. I thought stuff like that ended in the 1950's, but I was mistaken. I am all for free speech, but the guy was a dick.

It is a magazine, not the name of a guy.

Huh, for whatever reason I thought the editor's name was Charlie and I assumed that was his last name. I am aware the name of the magazine is Charlie Hebdo.

In any case, I obviously don't get their art because they call themselves anti-racist, but print extremely racist caricatures.

It just means Weekly Charlie. I think Americans have a tendency to evaluate whether something is racist by formal criteria, like certain words and stereotypes are racist by definition, whereas Europeans judge by the intention and context.

lol

[Sbane]

I do have to mention that a lot of the caricatures drawn by Charlie Hebdo are pretty damn disturbing. It was quite hard to view, actually. I thought stuff like that ended in the 1950's, but I was mistaken. I am all for free speech, but the guy was a dick.

It is a magazine, not the name of a guy.

Huh, for whatever reason I thought the editor's name was Charlie and I assumed that was his last name. I am aware the name of the magazine is Charlie Hebdo.

In any case, I obviously don't get their art because they call themselves anti-racist, but print extremely racist caricatures.

It just means Weekly Charlie. I think Americans have a tendency to evaluate whether something is racist by formal criteria, like certain words and stereotypes are racist by definition, whereas Europeans judge by the intention and context.

One of the reasons could be that these caricatures were used in a racist way in America in the past, but perhaps not as much in Europe.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Chomsky is a self hating Jew who will blame nearly everything on the West.

Noam Chomsky has actually experienced anti-Semitism, unlike many Jews who rush to the defense of Israel.

[© tweed]

Chomsky is a self hating Jew who will blame nearly everything on the West.

"There have long been efforts to identify anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in an effort to exploit anti-racist sentiment for political ends; "one of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all," Israeli diplomat Abba Eban argued, in a typical expression of this intellectually and morally disreputable position (Eban, Congress Bi-Weekly, March 30, 1973).

But that no longer suffices. It is now necessary to identify criticism of Israeli policies as anti-Semitism -- or in the case of Jews, as "self-hatred," so that all possible cases are covered."


(Noam Chomsky, Necessary Illusions, 1989)

[© tweed]

a few tidbits on the French tradition of free speech, currently under vicious attack from radial Islamists:


Charlie Hedbo fired Maurice Siné for anti-semitism.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/03/france.pressandpublishing


Dieudonné M'bala M'bala has been prohibited from making public performances in France due to his alleged anti-semitism.

[Famous Mortimer]

Neither was killed though.

[© tweed]

Neither was killed though.

again, the distinction of the state taking action vs private individuals.  Jews have the pull to use the state to censor what they don't like -- though reportedly the JDL did write Sine a death threat.

[ag]

Political cartoonists in America crap their pants anytime a Black politician is in the news because it's impossible to draw a caricature of a non-White person without being called racist. They lucked out with Obama who I guess has big ears kinda? Anyway, that's how they always draw Obama, just a guy with huge ears.

Considering that this



was an actual New Yorker cover, I would not fear too much for American cartoonists.

[Sbane]

Neither was killed though.

Yeah, censorship isn't a big deal until someone gets killed. Sure.

[Antonio the Sixth]

*facepalm*

I think Americans have a tendency to evaluate whether something is racist by formal criteria, like certain words and stereotypes are racist by definition, whereas Europeans judge by the intention and context.

You may be on something here. Charlie Hebdo often played with racist tropes in order to cast ridicule on them. I'm not sure if it's the best response, but it's a legitimate one.