Liberal opinion of Bill Maher's views on Islam...

[bedstuy]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

If you actually think I said something racist or incorrect, we can talk about that.  But, I find it childish for you to say nobody can discuss something because you're not interested in it.

[Sbane]

sbane - A full 86% of Malaysian Muslims support sharia law, and of those, two-thirds support the death penalty for apostasy.  It's true that Malaysia has little Islamist terrorism, but these numbers are still a problem.  You seem to be under the impression that people expressing concern about these numbers "must" be expressing concern about all adherents of the religion, or claiming that all interpretations of the religion lead the same place.  That's not the case, even with Maher, who can be pretty broad with his dickishness.

P.S. You earlier claimed that Sam Harris has never differentiated liberal Muslims from Islamists.  Again, do you actually believe that he never does this?  I recall him doing it multiple times during the Affleck debate.

(Side note: It's weird to me to see liberals purporting to be concerned about social justice treat this so much differently than the #NotAllMen/#YesAllWomen business.  I'm not criticizing anyone in this thread, but I know a ton of people who flipped on the whole "appropriateness of systemic criticism of non-majority ills" issue, seemingly overnight.)

How many people have actually been tried and killed for apostasy in Malaysia? And why exactly is this a problem and not views on gays in Uganda? And if both are problems, then why is Islam in general being held up for scrutiny and not Christianity? I do agree the Ugandans don't go around killing innocent people because of their despicable views, but that is the case with Malaysians as well. Religious people all around the world, including America, hold unsavory views. The difference is that some Muslims use their religion to commit violence, but I don't get why Malaysians or people in other "moderate" Islamic countries are guilty as well.

Sam Harris may do a better job of differentiating between liberals and the rest of the Islamic world, but even he unnecessarily tries to paint Islam as being exceptional when it comes to extremism. Why not focus just on the extremists? Why the need to prove Islam itself is the problem?

[Sbane]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

If you actually think I said something racist or incorrect, we can talk about that.  But, I find it childish for you to say nobody can discuss something because you're not interested in it.

You have the freedom to do whatever you want, but conflating Islam with violent extremism is counterproductive and only creates more hate in this world. There are 1.5 Billion Muslims in this world. Try to take that into account when you think of Islam.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

The conflation of the two bolded bits above is neither sensitive nor nuanced, and I would go so far as to say is a big part of the problem Sbane is talking about.

[bedstuy]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

The conflation of the two bolded bits above is neither sensitive nor nuanced, and I would go so far as to say is a big part of the problem Sbane is talking about.

I don't follow.  What do you disagree with? 

[Slander and/or Libel]

You talk about Islamic extremist groups, and then you say Islam (implication: Islam as a whole) has proactively injected itself into a discussion about the people committing horrendous crimes. This is incorrect.

[bedstuy]

You talk about Islamic extremist groups, and then you say Islam (implication: Islam as a whole) has proactively injected itself into a discussion about the people committing horrendous crimes. This is incorrect.

I must be missing something.  Would you also say that you can't talk about terrorism in the context of Al Qaeda because not all terrorist groups are Al Qaeda?

[Slander and/or Libel]

I didn't say you can't talk about Islam. You said "Islam has injected itself into the conversation," which implies a certain level of proactiveness on the part of the religion at large. If you had said "Islam has been thrust into the conversation," I would likely have had no problem.

[Sol]

I do agree the Ugandans don't go around killing innocent people because of their despicable views

I agree with everything else you're saying, man, but the Congo Wars happened.

[bedstuy]

I didn't say you can't talk about Islam. You said "Islam has injected itself into the conversation," which implies a certain level of proactiveness on the part of the religion at large. If you had said "Islam has been thrust into the conversation," I would likely have had no problem.

It doesn't actually imply that at all.  Maybe it wasn't the most elegant phrase, but you know what I mean.  Islam is related to many of the global issues of concern in recent years like ISIS, the war on terror, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Northern Nigeria, and all the terrorist attacks in the West. 

[Slander and/or Libel]

If that's what you mean, then fine. It's not what you said, and it's almost certainly not what a moderate Muslim would have heard.

[bedstuy]

If that's what you mean, then fine. It's not what you said, and it's almost certainly not what a moderate Muslim would have heard.

If someone hears Islam and thinks that Islam means "all Muslim people as individuals," how is that my fault?  I haven't said anything remotely offensive.  You're just telling me that I must have implied something about all Muslims because I said something about Islam.  Nope, I can only be held accountable for what I said, not what you think I must have meant.  You're being incredibly pedantic and looking to be offended by things I didn't even say.  (I'm sorry if you took that as I hate all pedants and want to send them to Siberian gulags.)  (I'm sorry if you think that implies that I think all of Siberia is a horrible place) 

[Slander and/or Libel]

JFC, dude, I'm not being pedantic. This is directly relevant to the topic at hand. I accept that you didn't mean what it looked to me like your words implied, but your steadfast refusal to even entertain the idea that it's a reasonable implication is baffling.

Also, nowhere did I say "all Muslim people as individuals". Check yourself.

[bedstuy]

JFC, dude, I'm not being pedantic. This is directly relevant to the topic at hand. I accept that you didn't mean what it looked to me like your words implied, but your steadfast refusal to even entertain the idea that it's a reasonable implication is baffling.

Also, nowhere did I say "all Muslim people as individuals". Check yourself.

I guess I still don't understand your point.  I didn't say anything racist or hateful or offensive.  You choose to think that saying the word Islam in the same paragraph as extremist is offensive or whatever.  I think we've exhausted that nitpick.

[Slander and/or Libel]

"Islam has injected itself into the conversation."

The conversation about what?

"Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes."

How exactly has Islam, in general, injected itself into that specific conversation?

[bedstuy]

"Islam has injected itself into the conversation."

The conversation about what?

"Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes."

How exactly has Islam, in general, injected itself into that specific conversation?

Islamic extremism involves Islam.  But, that's about enough of that conversation.

[Slander and/or Libel]

So are you saying Islamic extremism has dragged Islam into that conversation? I might agree. I find it still pretty baffling that you seem unable to understand what I'm talking about.

[ingemann]

So are you saying Islamic extremism has dragged Islam into that conversation? I might agree. I find it still pretty baffling that you seem unable to understand what I'm talking about.

Well maybe you should start again with making your point clear. Because clearly everybody else arre just too stupid to get your point.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

The conflation of the two bolded bits above is neither sensitive nor nuanced, and I would go so far as to say is a big part of the problem Sbane is talking about.

[ingemann]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

The conflation of the two bolded bits above is neither sensitive nor nuanced, and I would go so far as to say is a big part of the problem Sbane is talking about.

Try to explain with you own words what you mean, because clearly everybody is able to find your earlier post, and bedstuy have desperate tried to interpreted your comments in all reasonable and sensible ways it could be interpreted, with you behaving like you was his angry girlfriend ("it wasn't that I meant, you should know what I mean").

[Slander and/or Libel]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

The conflation of the two bolded bits above is neither sensitive nor nuanced, and I would go so far as to say is a big part of the problem Sbane is talking about.

Try to explain with you own words what you mean, because clearly everybody is able to find your earlier post, and bedstuy have desperate tried to interpreted your comments in all reasonable and sensible ways it could be interpreted, with you behaving like you was his angry girlfriend ("it wasn't that I meant, you should know what I mean").

WTF are you even talking about? I quoted my own words. My post was perfectly clear. The swipe about an angry girlfriend is incoherent.

[they don't love you like i love you]

sbane - A full 86% of Malaysian Muslims support sharia law, and of those, two-thirds support the death penalty for apostasy.  It's true that Malaysia has little Islamist terrorism, but these numbers are still a problem.  You seem to be under the impression that people expressing concern about these numbers "must" be expressing concern about all adherents of the religion, or claiming that all interpretations of the religion lead the same place.  That's not the case, even with Maher, who can be pretty broad with his dickishness.

P.S. You earlier claimed that Sam Harris has never differentiated liberal Muslims from Islamists.  Again, do you actually believe that he never does this?  I recall him doing it multiple times during the Affleck debate.

(Side note: It's weird to me to see liberals purporting to be concerned about social justice treat this so much differently than the #NotAllMen/#YesAllWomen business.  I'm not criticizing anyone in this thread, but I know a ton of people who flipped on the whole "appropriateness of systemic criticism of non-majority ills" issue, seemingly overnight.)

How many people have actually been tried and killed for apostasy in Malaysia? And why exactly is this a problem and not views on gays in Uganda? And if both are problems, then why is Islam in general being held up for scrutiny and not Christianity? I do agree the Ugandans don't go around killing innocent people because of their despicable views, but that is the case with Malaysians as well. Religious people all around the world, including America, hold unsavory views. The difference is that some Muslims use their religion to commit violence, but I don't get why Malaysians or people in other "moderate" Islamic countries are guilty as well.

Sam Harris may do a better job of differentiating between liberals and the rest of the Islamic world, but even he unnecessarily tries to paint Islam as being exceptional when it comes to extremism. Why not focus just on the extremists? Why the need to prove Islam itself is the problem?

The death penalty for apostasy might not occur in Malaysia, but there are some pretty discriminatory laws. For example Malaysia prohibits selling alcohol to Muslims, and in Malaysia religion is an actual legal status assigned to you you can't change. So if you were raised Muslim, you can't ever buy alcohol, but anyone not can. Now I'm sure that it's not too difficult for people with a Muslim status to get alcohol in Malaysia anyway considering how easy it is for underage people in the US to get alcohol, but there are other issues where the law is a big problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Joy

As far as Uganda goes, it's not like the situation in Muslim countries is all that much better, see mostly Muslim The Gambia just passing a similar law and what their President has said: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/the-7-worst-things-gambias-president-yahya-jammeh-has-ever-said-about-gay-people-9977170.html

[ingemann]

Sbane, we've basically been at war with Islamic extremist groups for 13 years and change.  We've spent untold billions and lost thousands of lives.  And, globally, we have Islamic extremist insurgencies around the world that are killing people and committing horrendous crimes.  So, Islam is on the table for discussion.  I didn't put it on the table for political debate, Islam has injected itself into the conversation.  And, so, I'm more interested in understanding the issue than I am with avoiding potential hurt feelings.  Obviously, this subject begs sensitivity and nuance, but I think I've been sensitive and nuanced.

The conflation of the two bolded bits above is neither sensitive nor nuanced, and I would go so far as to say is a big part of the problem Sbane is talking about.

Try to explain with you own words what you mean, because clearly everybody is able to find your earlier post, and bedstuy have desperate tried to interpreted your comments in all reasonable and sensible ways it could be interpreted, with you behaving like you was his angry girlfriend ("it wasn't that I meant, you should know what I mean").

WTF are you even talking about? I quoted my own words. My post was perfectly clear. The swipe about an angry girlfriend is incoherent.

Yes dear

[Slander and/or Libel]

Tell me what you think is unclear about my post and I'll try to clear it up, then.

[ingemann]

Tell me what you think is unclear about my post and I'll try to clear it up, then.

I think it's very clear, but I also think that Bedstuy have interpreted in the way it clearly only can be interpreted, which is why I suggest that you tell us precisely what you thought was wrong with Bedstuy's post.