Ukraine:more than 750 Ukrainian soldiers killed. Poroshenko invites NATO officia

[IrisBloom]

A few minutes ago I finished talking on Skype with my old friend from Poland. He serves in the armed forces of NATO located in Poland.
He told me that in the last 24 hours due to strategic mistakes Ukrainian army lost more than 750 soldiers and officers and about 60 units of tanks and armored vehicles.
He also said that the President Poroshenko is going to invite NATO officials to collect the necessary information to bring armed forces of NATO into Ukraine.
Thank God
my friend is just an operator

[jaichind]

It seems the rebels are shelling the port of Mariupol.  Not clear if they are trying to push to take that over or it is an distraction from other objectives like pushing the Kiev regime forces further back from Donetsk airport from which they just withdrew.

[Beezer]

I somehow doubt any NATO forces will be seen in Ukraine any time soon. The last thing the West wants to do is kill Russian soldiers. While I understand the difficult situation Poroshenko finds himself in, he sometimes has no one to blame but himself for such dire news. The Ukrainian leadership has made some horrible mistakes over the past few months, rejecting sensible strategic retreats which have led to these kinds of unnecessary losses.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

[ingemann]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

[ingemann]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

[ingemann]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

You can blame him for being incompetent, which is what he has been blamed for in this thread.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

You can blame him for being incompetent, which is what he has been blamed for in this thread.

No amount of competence in the world can save his country from being squashed under an imperial invader. He could be Winston Churchill but Russia's superior military might would still roll over him. That's the point here. You could take him out right now and shoot him dead and Ukraine would be no better off as long as Putin is determined to widen this war. Why can't we train our rhetorical firepower against the man who is really responsible for this, for once? You won't fight him, you won't seriously sanction him, can we at least speak against him here using our words on Atlas Forum? No, I won't blame Poroshenko. I will blame Putin, because he is the instigator of this. Period.

[ingemann]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

You can blame him for being incompetent, which is what he has been blamed for in this thread.

No amount of competence in the world can save his country from being squashed under an imperial invader. He could be Winston Churchill but Russia's superior military might would still roll over him. That's the point here. You could take him out right now and shoot him dead and Ukraine would be no better off as long as Putin is determined to widen this war. Why can't we train our rhetorical firepower against the man who is really responsible for this, for once? You won't fight him, you won't seriously sanction him, can we at least speak against him here using our words on Atlas Forum? No, I won't blame Poroshenko. I will blame Putin, because he is the instigator of this. Period.

How much is you willing to sacrifise for Ukraine? This is not a criticism, it's a question. EU could bring full blown sanctions on Russia, closing down the gas trade. But the result in the very short term would be thousands of dead Europeans (not Danes of course) and in a slighter longer short term, a major recession not just for Europe but for the world. Are the Ukrainian government worth 5 year more of a slugging economy?

Europe is not willing at this point to commit economic suicide for a friendly, but somewhat questionable (the Ukrainian government is not exactly the liberal freedom lovers, they play on TV, throiugh neither are they a bunch of Fascist, which they are shown as on Russian TV) and non-allied government. Especially as they still trying a mix of carrot and stick against Putin. Of course if Putin turn out to be Hitler v.2, they may be forced to do it, but honestly it's not really a good idea, to collapse the world economy before you see if other tools work, especially when if you wait a few month the European position are much stronger again.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

You can blame him for being incompetent, which is what he has been blamed for in this thread.

No amount of competence in the world can save his country from being squashed under an imperial invader. He could be Winston Churchill but Russia's superior military might would still roll over him. That's the point here. You could take him out right now and shoot him dead and Ukraine would be no better off as long as Putin is determined to widen this war. Why can't we train our rhetorical firepower against the man who is really responsible for this, for once? You won't fight him, you won't seriously sanction him, can we at least speak against him here using our words on Atlas Forum? No, I won't blame Poroshenko. I will blame Putin, because he is the instigator of this. Period.

How much is you willing to sacrifise for Ukraine? This is not a criticism, it's a question. EU could bring full blown sanctions on Russia, closing down the gas trade. But the result in the very short term would be thousands of dead Europeans (not Danes of course) and in a slighter longer short term, a major recession not just for Europe but for the world. Are the Ukrainian government worth 5 year more of a slugging economy?

How much to sacrifice for all of Ukraine? That's from Sloviansk to Lviv. If you're willing to sacrifice all of that, do you think Putin does not see it? If you are willing to sacrifice all that, then he will take it. How many Europeans (including Ukrainians and Russians of course) have already died in this war? How many do you think will continue to die as Putin continues on with this war and slowly takes more cities? The longer this goes on, do you think more will die, or fewer? And I'd Putin takes all of Ukraine, do you think he will stop there? What about the rest of the former Soview Union? And then the Baltic states? Do you think the options you will face then will be easier than the ones you have now?

No one has called for Europe to stop all gas shipments from Russia. Serious sanctions would be, the same as what has already been imposed except for an indefinite term so they will only be lifted when Russia pulls back on the ground, and and not something that automatically expires after just one year. A clear plan to automatically escalate sanctions if Putin continues to attack, as well as de-escalate if he pulls back. Eject Russia from SWIFT. Iran had been ejected from SWIFT merely for building a domestic nuclear program. Russia is attacking another country, which is far worse.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This is hyperbole. European economic troubles are more related to the Euro than Russia. It's economy will be fine without Russia. 10 years ago Europe did almost no business with Russia and its economy was just as rich as it is now, if not more so. EU exports to Russia are just 6.8 percent of total EU exports and 1.2 percent of its GDP. Talk of "economic suicide" or "collapsing" the world economy is just ludicrous. Nothing could be more craven than selling out every principle of human rights and international laws in exchange for a few euros, which is why I don't understand this European in-thralldom to Putin.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If we're just going to hurl abuse, let's turn this around and ask about (hydro-carbon related) American buddy-buddyism with Saudi Arabia.

[Beet]

If we're just going to hurl abuse, let's turn this around and ask about (hydro-carbon related) American buddy-buddyism with Saudi Arabia.

Certainly the U.S. should drop its relationship with Saudi Arabia, but Saudi Arabia isn't going around invading its neighbors, and it hasn't started a war that has killed 5,000 people so far with no end in sight.

Also you don't see posters on Atlas saying "he had only himself to blame for his incompetence" when some Saudi funded terrorist group in Syria beheads a man.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We well could talk now about the influence of Saudi Arabia and its money on the wider region (and outside the Middle East, even!) over several decades...

...or perhaps there could be some dismounting from high horses? This is a discussion forum not a model UN.

[MaxQue]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

You can blame him for being incompetent, which is what he has been blamed for in this thread.

No amount of competence in the world can save his country from being squashed under an imperial invader. He could be Winston Churchill but Russia's superior military might would still roll over him. That's the point here. You could take him out right now and shoot him dead and Ukraine would be no better off as long as Putin is determined to widen this war. Why can't we train our rhetorical firepower against the man who is really responsible for this, for once? You won't fight him, you won't seriously sanction him, can we at least speak against him here using our words on Atlas Forum? No, I won't blame Poroshenko. I will blame Putin, because he is the instigator of this. Period.

How much is you willing to sacrifise for Ukraine? This is not a criticism, it's a question. EU could bring full blown sanctions on Russia, closing down the gas trade. But the result in the very short term would be thousands of dead Europeans (not Danes of course) and in a slighter longer short term, a major recession not just for Europe but for the world. Are the Ukrainian government worth 5 year more of a slugging economy?

Europe is not willing at this point to commit economic suicide for a friendly, but somewhat questionable (the Ukrainian government is not exactly the liberal freedom lovers, they play on TV, throiugh neither are they a bunch of Fascist, which they are shown as on Russian TV) and non-allied government. Especially as they still trying a mix of carrot and stick against Putin. Of course if Putin turn out to be Hitler v.2, they may be forced to do it, but honestly it's not really a good idea, to collapse the world economy before you see if other tools work, especially when if you wait a few month the European position are much stronger again.

Sanctions on Russia wouldn't hurt the economy, if the governments were really the ones to run things. They abdicated all powers to speculators and other people with deep pockets, who love Russia because they do business there.

Give government closer control of the economy, forbid speculators doing trouble when they are upset and you'll be able to punish Russia.

[Cory]

I somehow doubt any NATO forces will be seen in Ukraine any time soon. The last thing the West wants to do is kill Russian soldiers. While I understand the difficult situation Poroshenko finds himself in, he sometimes has no one to blame but himself for such dire news. The Ukrainian leadership has made some horrible mistakes over the past few months, rejecting sensible strategic retreats which have led to these kinds of unnecessary losses.

But "there are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine", remember?

[jaichind]

Tsipras already making his views known in a public way on the Russian-Ukraine issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/world/europe/greece-syriza-government-names-anti-austerity-economist-as-finance-minister.html

*Mr. Tsipras quickly demonstrated that Europe must not treat Greece as a weak junior partner. His government on Tuesday denounced a European Council statement in which European leaders blamed Russia for the escalating violence in Ukraine and raised the prospect of new economic sanctions.

* Mr. Tsipras has been a sharp critic of European sanctions against Moscow, and has also displayed past good will toward Russia, a sentiment common among many Greeks

*President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sent Mr. Tsipras a congratulatory telegram on Monday, the day he was sworn into office, while that same day Mr. Tsipras met the Russian ambassador in Athens.

[ag]

Tsipras already making his views known in a public way on the Russian-Ukraine issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/world/europe/greece-syriza-government-names-anti-austerity-economist-as-finance-minister.html

*Mr. Tsipras quickly demonstrated that Europe must not treat Greece as a weak junior partner. His government on Tuesday denounced a European Council statement in which European leaders blamed Russia for the escalating violence in Ukraine and raised the prospect of new economic sanctions.

* Mr. Tsipras has been a sharp critic of European sanctions against Moscow, and has also displayed past good will toward Russia, a sentiment common among many Greeks

*President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sent Mr. Tsipras a congratulatory telegram on Monday, the day he was sworn into office, while that same day Mr. Tsipras met the Russian ambassador in Athens.

Hm... Well, perhaps that is where he can get the help he would need to restart the Greek economy without the euro.

[Beezer]

If we're just going to hurl abuse, let's turn this around and ask about (hydro-carbon related) American buddy-buddyism with Saudi Arabia.

Certainly the U.S. should drop its relationship with Saudi Arabia, but Saudi Arabia isn't going around invading its neighbors, and it hasn't started a war that has killed 5,000 people so far with no end in sight.

Ahem, you do remember the role SA has played in destabilizing North Africa and Syria? I am not saying the kingdom itself is responsible for all the carnage that has ensued since the Arab spring but w/o them IS would probably not be pillaging its way through Syria and Iraq.

[Beezer]

Tsipras already making his views known in a public way on the Russian-Ukraine issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/world/europe/greece-syriza-government-names-anti-austerity-economist-as-finance-minister.html

*Mr. Tsipras quickly demonstrated that Europe must not treat Greece as a weak junior partner. His government on Tuesday denounced a European Council statement in which European leaders blamed Russia for the escalating violence in Ukraine and raised the prospect of new economic sanctions.

* Mr. Tsipras has been a sharp critic of European sanctions against Moscow, and has also displayed past good will toward Russia, a sentiment common among many Greeks

*President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sent Mr. Tsipras a congratulatory telegram on Monday, the day he was sworn into office, while that same day Mr. Tsipras met the Russian ambassador in Athens.

Hm... Well, perhaps that is where he can get the help he would need to restart the Greek economy without the euro.

How many rubles can Russia spare these days?

[ag]

Tsipras already making his views known in a public way on the Russian-Ukraine issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/world/europe/greece-syriza-government-names-anti-austerity-economist-as-finance-minister.html

*Mr. Tsipras quickly demonstrated that Europe must not treat Greece as a weak junior partner. His government on Tuesday denounced a European Council statement in which European leaders blamed Russia for the escalating violence in Ukraine and raised the prospect of new economic sanctions.

* Mr. Tsipras has been a sharp critic of European sanctions against Moscow, and has also displayed past good will toward Russia, a sentiment common among many Greeks

*President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sent Mr. Tsipras a congratulatory telegram on Monday, the day he was sworn into office, while that same day Mr. Tsipras met the Russian ambassador in Athens.

Hm... Well, perhaps that is where he can get the help he would need to restart the Greek economy without the euro.

How many rubles can Russia spare these days?

As many as it can print

[jaichind]

I tend to think that Putin is making his move now is somewhat related to the emerging Greek crisis.  I feel Putin and Tsipras are, to some extent, trying to take advantage of the adventures of the other to try to get maximum negotiation leverage over EU in their respective conflicts with EU.  While each have their own domestic reason to push ahead, the timing of the each others push makes the timing that much better.

[ag]

I tend to think that Putin is making his move now is somewhat related to the emerging Greek crisis.  I feel Putin and Tsipras are, to some extent, trying to take advantage of the adventures of the other to try to get maximum negotiation leverage over EU in their respective conflicts with EU.  While each have their own domestic reason to push ahead, the timing of the each others push makes the timing that much better.

Doubt that. Might use each other opportunistically on occasion, but see none of that at present.

[jaichind]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/01/what-did-he-actually-say-a-puzzle-from-berlin.html

Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk said in an interview in Germany that

"We can remember very well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany.
We have to make sure that this doesn`t happen again. No one has the right to redraw the post war map of Europe."

There is also a separate battle of who liberated Auschwitz.  Yatsenyuk making the comical, in my view,  claim that it was the Ukrainians since it was the USSR 60th Amry of the 1st Ukrainian Front that did this without regard for that fact it was a 1st Ukrainian Front was merely a designation based on geography when the front was formed.