Ukraine:more than 750 Ukrainian soldiers killed. Poroshenko invites NATO officia

[ag]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/01/what-did-he-actually-say-a-puzzle-from-berlin.html

Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk said in an interview in Germany that

"We can remember very well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany.
We have to make sure that this doesn`t happen again. No one has the right to redraw the post war map of Europe."

There is also a separate battle of who liberated Auschwitz.  Yatsenyuk making the comical, in my view,  claim that it was the Ukrainians since it was the USSR 60th Amry of the 1st Ukrainian Front that did this without regard for that fact it was a 1st Ukrainian Front was merely a designation based on geography when the front was formed.   

Both are old news, and not quite true. The translation of Yatsenyuk's words, in the first place, is not very precise, and, in the second place, the original source is not Yatsenyuk at all, but the Polish Foreign Minister. Naturally, that last is pure trolling - though, not without truth in it: Ukrainians formed a big chunk of all Soviet armies (irrespective of the name of the unit), and modern Ukraine has as much of a claim to being a Soviet successor, in this  particular case, as Russia.

Still, of course both the Polish FM and whoever repeats his words, are trolling - and they know they are. It is just a reminder to Russians that they cannot - and should not - separate their claim to being Europe´s liberators from that of Ukrainians. In other words, it is a response to Russian trolling about Ukrainians being "fascist". Unlike the Russian trolling, this one is, actually, not without a certain class.

[jaichind]

Ukraine has to make a deal with Putin.  UAH has already dropped to 25 and Ukraine itself is basically broke.  Since Russia is its biggest trader partner, sanctions on Russia as well as falling oil prices also hurts Ukraine.  Ukraine has to realize there could only be two outcomes in this conflict since Ukraine is much weaker than Russia.  Either EU or USA visits the stronger side, Russia in this case, work out a deal and then impose it on Ukraine as fait accompli (a la Munich 1938) or EU/USA joins the conflict and even the odds making Ukraine not the weaker side.  Since there is no chance of the second outcome, it is either a deal being imposed on Ukraine or Ukraine just continues to bleed to death from a military and economic point of view.  It seems now that Germany and France is making such a deal with Putin right now.  We will have the see this deal looks like.  In my view unless it has enough concessions to Russia Putin will not stop.  I suggest Ukraine make a deal as fast as possible with significant concessions to Putin before more economic damage is done.

[Beet]

Ukraine has to make a deal with Putin.  UAH has already dropped to 25 and Ukraine itself is basically broke.  Since Russia is its biggest trader partner, sanctions on Russia as well as falling oil prices also hurts Ukraine.  Ukraine has to realize there could only be two outcomes in this conflict since Ukraine is much weaker than Russia.  Either EU or USA visits the stronger side, Russia in this case, work out a deal and then impose it on Ukraine as fait accompli (a la Munich 1938) or EU/USA joins the conflict and even the odds making Ukraine not the weaker side.  Since there is no chance of the second outcome, it is either a deal being imposed on Ukraine or Ukraine just continues to bleed to death from a military and economic point of view.  It seems now that Germany and France is making such a deal with Putin right now.  We will have the see this deal looks like.  In my view unless it has enough concessions to Russia Putin will not stop.  I suggest Ukraine make a deal as fast as possible with significant concessions to Putin before more economic damage is done.

You're advocating a scenario you're openly comparing to Munich '38? This is terrible. A deal with significant concessions would only work if those concessions are a price paid in exchange for actually getting something. That something would have to be an ironclad, rock hard guarantee that what Putin has gained would be his last territorial demands for the rest of his life (or that if the present government) and that if any future government tries for more they will be backed to the hilt by the West - including militarily. And frankly, it's not clear whether the West has the political will to credibly make such promises. But Otherwise giving up major concessions beyond the September cease fire agreement already signed makes no sense unless you want to raise the Russian flag over Kiev tonight.

[ag]

Ukraine has to make a deal with Putin.  UAH has already dropped to 25 and Ukraine itself is basically broke.  Since Russia is its biggest trader partner, sanctions on Russia as well as falling oil prices also hurts Ukraine.  Ukraine has to realize there could only be two outcomes in this conflict since Ukraine is much weaker than Russia.  Either EU or USA visits the stronger side, Russia in this case, work out a deal and then impose it on Ukraine as fait accompli (a la Munich 1938) or EU/USA joins the conflict and even the odds making Ukraine not the weaker side.  Since there is no chance of the second outcome, it is either a deal being imposed on Ukraine or Ukraine just continues to bleed to death from a military and economic point of view.  It seems now that Germany and France is making such a deal with Putin right now.  We will have the see this deal looks like.  In my view unless it has enough concessions to Russia Putin will not stop.  I suggest Ukraine make a deal as fast as possible with significant concessions to Putin before more economic damage is done.

You realize that if Ukraine is forced to yield now, we are pretty much guaranteed a (nuclear) WWIII within the next few years, don't you? Because if "the deal" has enough concessions to Russia, Putin will never stop.

[ag]

UAH has already dropped to 25

Have you checked the RUB?

[ag]

Let us face the reality: there are no concessions that Ukraine can make that will stop Putin for any significant time period even at Lviv. The more Ukraine concedes, the more he will ask for. For that not to be the case, Western troups would have to face the Russians across any demarcation line thus established. You really think the line on the Bug would be any more advantageous for the West? Or that it would, in fact, be defended?

Ukrainians, initially, chose not to fight: to give up Crimea after a demonstration. They got Luhansk and Donetsk as a reward. There is no way that giving up Luhansk and Donetsk would not then lead to Kharkiv and Kyiv.