Senator TNF, why? :(
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  Senator TNF, why? :(
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Author Topic: Senator TNF, why? :(  (Read 1577 times)
Prince of Salem
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« on: January 24, 2015, 11:12:50 PM »

Don't get me wrong, guys. I actually like Senator TNF. We've had our differences (a lot, actually), but I like his conviction on his views.

However, there's something with him that I'm really concerned about. It is his relation with the Liberals and Social Democrats from his own party. The same ones who tend, more than usually, to strip down his bills and imply that his ideas are radical (specially in the Senate), but also the same ones he doesn't stop voting for and defending! Why, Senator? Why? Surprise

Why continue to pretend that Labor is a united front, when that united front doesn't go further that elections? Why not defend your ideals and convictions instead of defending a party who has often turned its back on you, THEIR CHAIRMAN?  Why, TNF, why?
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SWE
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2015, 11:18:03 PM »

...
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2015, 11:18:22 PM »

It's usually good to wait until specific events precipitate authentic outrage before stirring the pot. But best of luck.
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Prince of Salem
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2015, 11:23:35 PM »

It's usually good to wait until specific events precipitate authentic outrage before stirring the pot. But best of luck.

Outrage should have precipitated long ago, that's what I'm saying. And thank you Smiley


I hope you don't end up like that too, my friend. You are warned.
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SWE
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2015, 11:24:09 PM »

...
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Oakvale
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2015, 11:34:20 PM »

lmao what
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Prince of Salem
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2015, 11:38:44 PM »

This is an example of what I'm talking about. You can look at how TNF's bill was stripped down by a Labor Senator (who's now running for president, with TNF's endorsement) to a point even I disagreed with (I even introduced a bill to the NE assembly inspired by this).

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=195275.0
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2015, 06:44:25 AM »

Labor has always been a united front. Those who try to sow division in Labor get divided. Those who try to destroy Labor get destroyed. No one has succeeded at tearing us asunder for any notable period of time, and obviously no one has succeeded at obliterating us from existence. Dozens have failed to assimilate within our ranks and yet we remain the largest party in the game.

As a party with an actual core of beliefs and one that takes tough stances, we are above the rest and our ability to continue onward - despite setbacks and stumbles - puts us in a whole different league than the parties that use other means as a crutch. To survive in the middle is to be expected. To survive on the fringes is to excel.

We are the only legacy party that remains. We are legion, and don't you ever forget it. Smiley

RIP LIEBERALS
RIP FEDORALISTS
RIP POTATO UNION
RIP ASSORTED TINY PARTIES
RIP PRE-DISSOLUTION DYNAMIC
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TNF
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2015, 06:58:47 AM »

Are you drunk or something? I can't make heads or tails of the OP
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bore
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2015, 07:49:17 AM »

Senator, how do you explain defending Bore while condemning Liberals?
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ZuWo
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2015, 11:07:43 AM »

The point JoMCaR makes is hardly controversial but it applies to all major parties (except maybe the D-R's, who genuinely seem to be a united front), not just Labor.

Among the Federalists there is the obvious divide between social conservatives and those who emphasize their libertarian leanings. Economic and regional issues are still the main reasons why this coalition has been remarkably stable so far. However, it's still hard to see what the party as a whole stands far, especially when it comes to the federal level.

The People's Party is so extremely broad that it's surprising the party hasn't been ripped apart yet. Apparently no one considers it questionable to have a conservative regional executive in the Pacific and to run a candidate for Northeast Senate whose proposals even make socialists blush. Since most of its members are highly popular individuals the party doesn't suffer from its complete lack of a coherent ideology, though.
 
Finally, it would be silly to argue there isn't any kind of ideological divide within Labor. Clearly, there is a sizable number of unapologetic socialists on the one hand and more pragmatic social-democrats on the other hand. Members of the former group seem to be the ideological pacemakers, while the latter often content themselves with working to moderate the proposals put forward by the first group.

The Northeast Senate race sums up all of this very neatly; there is a Labor candidate who's probably very close ideologically to most TPP members, and there's the TPP candidate who fits in very nicely with the far left of the Labor Party. Yet, the leaders of each party immediately endorsed their own candidate, which shows this race is about party politics rather than ideology. Conservatives and centrists in the Northeast once more have the choice between voting for one of their own, abstaining or picking who they regard as the lesser evil. 
 
To cut a long story short, for most players being a member of a major party is still primarily a matter of picking a certain side and cheering for it (almost) no matter what - questions of ideology are secondary. Atlasia never changes!
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2015, 12:25:24 PM »

TPP will never be ripped apart because its core principles are common sense and consensus-building. Until the other parties adopt that, there will always be a place for TPP.

Also, lol @ Griffin coming in with a dissertation to defend the Labor party even against a rube attack like this one. Not everything deserves a reaction. It just lends credence to the argument that someone is in a little too deep and getting a little too paranoid.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2015, 12:29:39 PM »

The People's Party is so extremely broad that it's surprising the party hasn't been ripped apart yet. Apparently no one considers it questionable to have a conservative regional executive in the Pacific and to run a candidate for Northeast Senate whose proposals even make socialists blush. Since most of its members are highly popular individuals the party doesn't suffer from its complete lack of a coherent ideology, though.

This is an easy political attack from the right-wing fringes, but it's not actually true. People like Matt and Sawx (is there something in the water in the NE?) are certainly on the left wing of the party, but in general most of our elected officials fall into the centre to centre-left category. It's easy to attack a party built around the principle of consideration and consensus, but I think I can live with that. Wink

Because the Fedoralists are a doomed joke and the DRs are the punchline to that joke (sorry guys), Labor and TPP are the only parties in the game that are even semi-legitimate political forces. As such, left-wingers who for whatever reason don't feel at home in Labor tend to gravitate to us. Similarly, Simfan's disdain for the increasingly Cro-Magnon conservatism of the Fedoralists (vice chair JCL!) meant that TPP was the natural choice, even though he is obviously very much to the right of much of the party.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2015, 12:51:28 PM »

With all due respect, building a party around the principle of "consideration and consensus" appears terribly shallow. See the example of the Senate - "consideration and consensus" are very widespread among nearly all Senators, regardless of their partisan affiliation. Most bills are extremely left-wing, yes, but there are usually lengthy debates full of consideration and consensus-building.

If the coherent message of the People's Party is supposed to be something that 90% of Atlasia's citizens can subscribe to, fair enough.
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sentinel
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2015, 12:52:33 PM »

Oh man I love a dissertation by Griffin.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2015, 12:52:41 PM »

With all due respect, building a party around the principle of "consideration and consensus" appears terribly shallow. See the example of the Senate - "consideration and consensus" are very widespread among nearly all Senators, regardless of their partisan affiliation. Most bills are extremely left-wing, yes, but there are usually lengthy debates full of consideration and consensus-building.

If the coherent message of the People's Party is supposed to be something that 90% of Atlasia's citizens can subscribe to, fair enough.

Perhaps you should go and read our comprehensive platform, which was authored by yours truly, amended by the party membership, and adopted near-unanimously at our last convention despite protests from both left and right on some elements.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2015, 12:57:24 PM »

The Transcendental Democrats are the only truly credible party left in Atlasia. You should join us.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2015, 01:15:20 PM »

Anyway, the problem with the premise of this thread is that it's inherently nonsensical. TNF is one of the most talented politicians in Atlasia and was the natural successor to Griffin as Labor leader. The fact that he's on his party's left doesn't really have all that much to do with it.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2015, 01:19:54 PM »

I mean all of Labor agrees on the basic premise of things, just disagree on the degree to take it.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2015, 02:35:20 PM »

With all due respect, building a party around the principle of "consideration and consensus" appears terribly shallow. See the example of the Senate - "consideration and consensus" are very widespread among nearly all Senators, regardless of their partisan affiliation. Most bills are extremely left-wing, yes, but there are usually lengthy debates full of consideration and consensus-building.

If the coherent message of the People's Party is supposed to be something that 90% of Atlasia's citizens can subscribe to, fair enough.

It's harder to subscribe to that message than you would think. The senate is very isolated from Atlasia's other political arenas. Outside of the senate, tone matters. The tone that the Federalists telegraph is incompetence and nutjobbery, and the tone that the Laborites exude is unabashed extremism. TPP manages to rally around a set of policy points as well as a positive attitude/tone. It's something to be proud of, to be sure.
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TNF
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2015, 02:40:16 PM »

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2015, 02:59:43 PM »

but Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2015, 03:23:40 PM »

With all due respect, building a party around the principle of "consideration and consensus" appears terribly shallow. See the example of the Senate - "consideration and consensus" are very widespread among nearly all Senators, regardless of their partisan affiliation. Most bills are extremely left-wing, yes, but there are usually lengthy debates full of consideration and consensus-building.

If the coherent message of the People's Party is supposed to be something that 90% of Atlasia's citizens can subscribe to, fair enough.

TPP manages to rally around a set of policy points as well as a positive attitude/tone. It's something to be proud of, to be sure.

What policy points are written in a party's platform and what the individual members of said party actually stand for can often be very different. Perhaps I'm biased, perhaps I'm too dumb to grasp the underlying concept, but to me TPP means "whatever you want it to be". Don't get me wrong, I have a high opinion of most TPPers and would vote for them under certain circumstances but when I read "TPP" I instantly think "generally left of center but right-wingers and Trotskyists are welcome too". That, to me, sounds like the description of a social club rather than a party with a coherent message. But whatever, if that's what's trendy these days ... Wink
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DemPGH
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2015, 05:17:33 PM »

Don't get me wrong, guys. I actually like Senator TNF. We've had our differences (a lot, actually), but

LMAO.

Wanted to peek-a-boo in Fantasyland to see what was going on, and yep, same old. Might have gotten worse. Haha. Grin
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2015, 05:47:29 PM »
« Edited: January 25, 2015, 05:49:04 PM by Duke »

TPP will never be ripped apart because it's members genuinely believe in it's mission. It's a dynamic those who are not members will never truly understand. Even when it disbursed for a year, The Coalition remained.

The beauty of The Party is even when it was attacked for having no principles, it had and still has the most comprehensive platform of nearly any party.
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