Do you think democracy can actually work in China?
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  Do you think democracy can actually work in China?
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Question: Democracy in China?
#1
Yes, it will eventually work out
 
#2
Yes, but not as well as one-party rule
 
#3
No, it will destroy the country
 
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Total Voters: 49

Author Topic: Do you think democracy can actually work in China?  (Read 4985 times)
hangfan91
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« on: January 25, 2015, 05:50:50 AM »

China has never had a democratic government in its 2000+ year history, being ruled mostly by an Imperial bureaucracy with the Emperor at head, followed by a period of Nationalist government and warlordism, then Communism for the past 60+ years.

For all those people who say China needs to transition to a democratic system, do you think democracy will actually work in China? Since they never had elections before, do you think the results of democracy would lead to a fracturing of the country and destruction (like the CPC claims)?

India has had democracy since 1947 but it's very messy and things in general get done a lot slower than when compared to the one-party authoritarian govt in China.
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politicus
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2015, 07:25:41 AM »

An important difference between China and India is that China is 92% Han Chinese and not very religious, which means ethnic and religious parties are unlikely to be important at the national level. There is no inherent reason mainland China shouldn't be able to become as democratic as Taiwan or South Korea (neither perfect democracies, but free societies). None of which had any democratic tradition prior to the democratization process in recent decades.
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 07:27:15 AM »

Yes, eventually, as well as it can work anywhere. The idea that there are Certain Cultures where folks Just Can't Rule Themselves, as something that renders democracy somehow permanently unworkable always and forever rather than just making it difficult to get off the ground, strikes me as inherently racist.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2015, 07:41:45 AM »

Yes, eventually, as well as it can work anywhere. The idea that there are Certain Cultures where folks Just Can't Rule Themselves, as something that renders democracy somehow permanently unworkable always and forever rather than just making it difficult to get off the ground, strikes me as inherently racist.

I would have made the exact same point, except in a more hyperbolic and dismissive tone.
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politicus
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2015, 07:45:59 AM »
« Edited: January 25, 2015, 07:48:23 AM by Charlotte Hebdo »

Yes, eventually, as well as it can work anywhere. The idea that there are Certain Cultures where folks Just Can't Rule Themselves, as something that renders democracy somehow permanently unworkable always and forever rather than just making it difficult to get off the ground, strikes me as inherently racist.

Liberal Democracy likely can not work in very ethnically divided countries without some common cultural denominators creating an overarching loyalty. You need to get past the tribal/clan based loyalties and that is next to impossible in some societies. But democracy can be established in other forms than the Western liberal version. A federation of clans or tribes could also be a democracy.

I would have made the exact same point, except in a more hyperbolic and dismissive tone.

Tempted to put this in the Simple Truths mine Wink
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Platypus
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2015, 07:56:48 AM »

Democracy is dying anyway :shrug:
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2015, 07:57:21 AM »

Yes, I think it will. It will also be 'interesting' to see how a democratic China acts in the world.
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politicus
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2015, 08:09:40 AM »
« Edited: January 25, 2015, 08:52:38 AM by Charlotte Hebdo »

Yes, I think it will. It will also be 'interesting' to see how a democratic China acts in the world.

It has a very nationalist middle class, so probably at least as aggressive and selfish as now at first, but it would likely moderate more in the long run as the political culture matured in China.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2015, 08:39:30 AM »

Yes, I think it will. It will also be 'interesting' to see how a democratic China acts in the world.

It has a very nationalist middle class, so probably at least as aggressive and selfish as now at first, but it will likely moderate more in the long run as the political culture matures in China.

"Will" rather than "would"?  Do you actually see China transitioning to democracy any time soon?  I'm certainly in the camp that says that China could "handle" democracy as well as anyone, and that there's nothing particular about the culture that stands in the way, but how exactly would the current regime be deposed?
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politicus
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2015, 08:50:48 AM »

Yes, I think it will. It will also be 'interesting' to see how a democratic China acts in the world.

It has a very nationalist middle class, so probably at least as aggressive and selfish as now at first, but it will likely moderate more in the long run as the political culture matures in China.

"Will" rather than "would"?  Do you actually see China transitioning to democracy any time soon?  I'm certainly in the camp that says that China could "handle" democracy as well as anyone, and that there's nothing particular about the culture that stands in the way, but how exactly would the current regime be deposed?


I am not an Anglophone, do not read too much into what tense I use.
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2015, 01:22:56 PM »

I imagine a democratic China would look like a lot of countries - a sprawling dirigiste conservative party that runs things and a liberal opposition who occasionally try to run things
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politicus
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2015, 01:27:07 PM »
« Edited: January 25, 2015, 01:33:45 PM by Charlotte Hebdo »

I imagine a democratic China would look like a lot of countries - a sprawling dirigiste conservative party that runs things and a liberal opposition who occasionally try to run things

There are three main tendencies ideologically in CPC.

Maoists, Centrists ("Social Democrats") and Conservative Nationalists. A democratic China would have a viable Maoist party and its main opposition party would be more leftist (=statist) than the ones in South Korea and Japan.
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Boston Bread
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2015, 01:58:15 PM »

Only a handful countries have had a long democratic tradition, that's not a problem. And fracturing hasn't destroyed India which has never been unified for long until now while China has been unified for most of its history so that isn't a problem either. However if the CPC remains unified after a democracy is established I could see them becoming a catch-all party which keeps China a single-party state, and it wouldn't be a liberal democracy. What would be interesting would be how a CPC split what look like if it happened.
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ingemann
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2015, 02:02:21 PM »

I think people bring up some very good points in this thread and I will also say that while China have a worse reputation for historical xenophobia and isolationism than Korea and Japan, it was in fact never as bad and it historical allowed more diversity than its two eastern neighbours. So if those two could become democracies, I see no reason for democracy not to work in China too, it have all the best traits for funtioning democracy a strong unified identity and a strong state.

Of course I think  that China will become a democracy in the future (through when is the question). The one party structure (and the nepotism which follow such structure) and lack of respect for rule of law, mean that China will hit a ceiling in economic development at some point, which will result in public resentment against the regime, which will force China to develop structure which allow the people more influence in the state and when they have begun that, democracy will become unavoidable.
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Beet
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2015, 02:17:34 PM »

The primary obstacle to democracy in China, is of course the CPC. They seem to be determined to oppress China.
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2015, 02:20:20 PM »

I imagine a democratic China would look like a lot of countries - a sprawling dirigiste conservative party that runs things and a liberal opposition who occasionally try to run things

There are three main tendencies ideologically in CPC.

Maoists, Centrists ("Social Democrats") and Conservative Nationalists. A democratic China would have a viable Maoist party and its main opposition party would be more leftist (=statist) than the ones in South Korea and Japan.

Sure, there are Maoists in the communist party, but I don't know if anything beyond ceremonial Maoism will have any resonance in an increasingly urbanized, middle-class-oriented society that the Chinese are building
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2015, 02:21:45 PM »

 
Liberal Democracy likely can not work in very ethnically divided countries without some common cultural denominators creating an overarching loyalty. You need to get past the tribal/clan based loyalties and that is next to impossible in some societies. But democracy can be established in other forms than the Western liberal version. A federation of clans or tribes could also be a democracy.


Well, I assume a democratic China would have strong ethnic separatist parties in regions like Xinjiang and Tibet.

I wonder what a Chinese election map would look like?
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ingemann
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2015, 02:24:02 PM »

Liberal Democracy likely can not work in very ethnically divided countries without some common cultural denominators creating an overarching loyalty. You need to get past the tribal/clan based loyalties and that is next to impossible in some societies. But democracy can be established in other forms than the Western liberal version. A federation of clans or tribes could also be a democracy.


Well, I assume a democratic China would have strong ethnic separatist parties in regions like Xinjiang and Tibet.

I wonder what a Chinese election map would look like?

Likely, but they would be too small to sabotage the political process. Seccessionist parties need to reach some size before they're able to do that.
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politicus
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2015, 02:26:56 PM »

Liberal Democracy likely can not work in very ethnically divided countries without some common cultural denominators creating an overarching loyalty. You need to get past the tribal/clan based loyalties and that is next to impossible in some societies. But democracy can be established in other forms than the Western liberal version. A federation of clans or tribes could also be a democracy.


Well, I assume a democratic China would have strong ethnic separatist parties in regions like Xinjiang and Tibet.

I wonder what a Chinese election map would look like?

Yes, but that would be rather inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. 92% Han Chinese is the important thing.
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politicus
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2015, 02:29:34 PM »

I imagine a democratic China would look like a lot of countries - a sprawling dirigiste conservative party that runs things and a liberal opposition who occasionally try to run things

There are three main tendencies ideologically in CPC.

Maoists, Centrists ("Social Democrats") and Conservative Nationalists. A democratic China would have a viable Maoist party and its main opposition party would be more leftist (=statist) than the ones in South Korea and Japan.

Sure, there are Maoists in the communist party, but I don't know if anything beyond ceremonial Maoism will have any resonance in an increasingly urbanized, middle-class-oriented society that the Chinese are building

China is a very divided society with enormous inequality.
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2015, 02:34:25 PM »

I imagine a democratic China would look like a lot of countries - a sprawling dirigiste conservative party that runs things and a liberal opposition who occasionally try to run things

There are three main tendencies ideologically in CPC.

Maoists, Centrists ("Social Democrats") and Conservative Nationalists. A democratic China would have a viable Maoist party and its main opposition party would be more leftist (=statist) than the ones in South Korea and Japan.

Sure, there are Maoists in the communist party, but I don't know if anything beyond ceremonial Maoism will have any resonance in an increasingly urbanized, middle-class-oriented society that the Chinese are building

China is a very divided society with enormous inequality.

So is the US, but you don't see any Maoists
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2015, 02:39:27 PM »

I imagine a democratic China would look like a lot of countries - a sprawling dirigiste conservative party that runs things and a liberal opposition who occasionally try to run things

There are three main tendencies ideologically in CPC.

Maoists, Centrists ("Social Democrats") and Conservative Nationalists. A democratic China would have a viable Maoist party and its main opposition party would be more leftist (=statist) than the ones in South Korea and Japan.

Sure, there are Maoists in the communist party, but I don't know if anything beyond ceremonial Maoism will have any resonance in an increasingly urbanized, middle-class-oriented society that the Chinese are building

China is a very divided society with enormous inequality.

So is the US, but you don't see any Maoists

You'd think the US not being China might have something to do with that.
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politicus
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2015, 03:16:55 PM »

Only a handful countries have had a long democratic tradition, that's not a problem. And fracturing hasn't destroyed India which has never been unified for long until now while China has been unified for most of its history so that isn't a problem either. However if the CPC remains unified after a democracy is established I could see them becoming a catch-all party which keeps China a single-party state, and it wouldn't be a liberal democracy. What would be interesting would be how a CPC split what look like if it happened.

A party as heterogenous as CPC would split up if they lost power. It ranges from Conservative Nationalists to genuine Maoists. There is no way to keep that together for long in a multiparty scenario.
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Boston Bread
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2015, 04:00:23 PM »

I'm thinking of a scenario where CPC allows limited democracy while under massive public pressure which doesn't sufficiently exist today. In that case I think China would remain a single-party state under CPC since it would still be the route to power.
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2015, 04:07:59 PM »

I'm imagining the KMT would revive itself in this scenario?

Could we even see monarchists? What are Puyi's ancestors doing now?

@Canadaland, so ... what would be the point? Limited glasnost is very dangerous because it seems like such an insult for the government to give you a taste of freedom, but stops short of true reform.
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