Cabinet Reform Amendment (Failed)

[bore]

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Article V, Section 1 of the Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article VIII, Section 2 of the Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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[/quote]

Sponsored by: Bore for the President

[Lumine]

Once again, Speaker Bore, thank you for sponsoring this.

Over the past few months I have been gradually convinced that the cabinet is in need of reform, and during the start of my administration I sought to experiment a bit with the cabinet by creating deputies, renaming a few positions and overall trying to change the way the cabinet works. Those efforts were not as successful as I would have hoped, but they helped me realize that changes can and must be enacted. This proposal is one that will need discussion and changes, but overall the idea is to:

-Establish a section in the Constitution dealing with the cabinet, seeing as the current constitution has the references of the cabinet split in several places and those can be quite ambiguous.
-Divide the cabinet in five departments, each one with its own duty and its officers. In this case we retain the current post, but with a renaming that makes more sense than the current one (I actually think SoIA and SoEA are dull names).
-Allow the cabinet members to hire deputies to split the work and focus on particular issues (instead of just allowing the AG, SoFE and GM to do so).
-Formally confirm the role of the Senate in dismissing a GM without Presidential approval, to avoid another DemPGH/SirNick situation.
-Finally, clear up the other references so the main cabinet section is the sole one concerned with this part of the government.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I have concerns about fully integrating the GM as a member of the cabinet. Sure, the dismissal process is different, but the implication is that of subordination, which is problematic to the role of the GM and how it relates to the administration. It implies that the President can "direct" its actions for instance.

[Cranberry]

I will definetely not support adding the Game Moderator to the cabinet. If we want that position to have some true independence and credibility, we can in no way make him a cabinet position. If any change here, I would go the other way, rather than having him appointed by the President, being approved by the Senate without Presidential appointment.

It's certainly sensible to order this all in one part, though I believe Clause 2 needs to be amended as it talks about a "Departement of Federal Elections" which is neither created nor tasked with anything the clause above, so legally does not exist, if I am thinking this correctly.

I would prefer Internal and External Affairs to State and Interior, but that is I guess the smallest question, and one of personal taste.

[windjammer]

I obviously oppose the constant attempt made by Lumine to make the executive power stronger.
Just to be clear by the way, I don't believe you're a far-rightwinger or anytning like that Lumine, you seem to believe in a ultra presidential system I don't like.

[Lumine]

I obviously oppose the constant attempt made by Lumine to make the executive power stronger.
Just to be clear by the way, I don't believe you're a far-rightwinger or anytning like that Lumine, you seem to believe in a ultra presidential system I don't like.

Please explain, how this gives more power to the executive? My intention here is to organize the cabinet and make it more efficient, not pursue an ultra presidential system.

I will definetely not support adding the Game Moderator to the cabinet. If we want that position to have some true independence and credibility, we can in no way make him a cabinet position. If any change here, I would go the other way, rather than having him appointed by the President, being approved by the Senate without Presidential appointment.

It's certainly sensible to order this all in one part, though I believe Clause 2 needs to be amended as it talks about a "Departement of Federal Elections" which is neither created nor tasked with anything the clause above, so legally does not exist, if I am thinking this correctly.

I would prefer Internal and External Affairs to State and Interior, but that is I guess the smallest question, and one of personal taste.

What do you mean with "presidential appointment", Cranberry? I may have misunderstood your argument here, but the current system has the President nominate a GM that the Senate has to approve, which I believe is the best mechanism available. I understand the concerns related to the Game Moderator and I would be happy to see this amended so he is out of the cabinet and not subordinated to the President (it should be noted I defended the role of the Senate in dismissing a Game Moderator even before we had the October conflict), remember that is just an early idea.

[Cranberry]

I will definetely not support adding the Game Moderator to the cabinet. If we want that position to have some true independence and credibility, we can in no way make him a cabinet position. If any change here, I would go the other way, rather than having him appointed by the President, being approved by the Senate without Presidential appointment.

It's certainly sensible to order this all in one part, though I believe Clause 2 needs to be amended as it talks about a "Departement of Federal Elections" which is neither created nor tasked with anything the clause above, so legally does not exist, if I am thinking this correctly.

I would prefer Internal and External Affairs to State and Interior, but that is I guess the smallest question, and one of personal taste.

What do you mean with "presidential appointment", Cranberry? I may have misunderstood your argument here, but the current system has the President nominate a GM that the Senate has to approve, which I believe is the best mechanism available. I understand the concerns related to the Game Moderator and I would be happy to see this amended so he is out of the cabinet and not subordinated to the President (it should be noted I defended the role of the Senate in dismissing a Game Moderator even before we had the October conflict), remember that is just an early idea.

This was just a proposal of what I would support before I supported having the GM subordinated to the President, in the sense that not the President would appoint the GM, but rather an applicant would apply to the Speaker, with the same procedure afterwards. It's more a consideration than a serious proposal, and you don't need to think about it.
It's good that you are willing to have the GM striken out of the cabinet.

[Lumine]

Very well, I'll try to propose an amendment later today, establishing a new section for the GM (along with Deputy GM) separate from the cabinet, and correcting the mistake in clause two.

[TNF]

Another power grab by this pathetic, ineffectual administration. I will oppose this.

[windjammer]

Well Lumine:
- your former executive order passing a budget: that's a senate duty to pass a budget.
- your law giving some GM duties to the SoEA, an office you directly control and that you could dismiss
-your amendment to the senate rules allowing the president to post in the legislative introduction thread
-and now this amendment making clear the GM is a member of the cabinet.


Oh, just to be clear, you're not malicious at all, I don't even think you realize that, but you constantly try to make the office of president even more powerful, and this is something I disagree.

[Lief 🗽]

I agree with my comrades senators TNF and Windjammer. The constant attempts by this administration to marginalize and subjugate the office of the GM are very disturbing.

[Lumine]

Right, the strawman-style attacks aside, I want to propose an amendment:

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Article V, Section 1 of the Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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Article VIII, Section 2 of the Constitution is hereby amended to read:

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[/quote]

[Senator Cris]

Sponsored for you.

[windjammer]

I won't oppose but I will propose my own amendment later.

[bore]

Senators have 36 hours to object to Cris's amendment

[TNF]

I object to the amendment.

[Cranberry]

Why so, Senator?

[TNF]

Because it increases the chances of this awful bill passing.

[bore]

Senators a vote is now open on Cris's amendment, please vote aye nay or abstain

[Simfan34]

Because it increases the chances of this awful bill passing.

What utter hypocrisy.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I have a difficult balancing act here since I am indeed a member of the administration, but I'm wondering why we need this bill. The SoIA's duties are already pretty well outlined inegiation. And while I've gone along with the president's request that I refer to myself as Secretary of the Interior, truth be told, I think "Internal Affairs" makes more sense...

[windjammer]

Well,
Aye

[Senator Cris]

Aye

[Cranberry]

Aye

I have a difficult balancing act here since I am indeed a member of the administration, but I'm wondering why we need this bill. The SoIA's duties are already pretty well outlined inegiation. And while I've gone along with the president's request that I refer to myself as Secretary of the Interior, truth be told, I think "Internal Affairs" makes more sense...

The idea is I guess that it is organized in an own section in a main part of the constitution, not in some amendment further down.
Anyway, I prefer Internal/External Affairs as well, and I'll present an amendment to change it to that later.

[Lumine]

Cranberry is right when to comes to the spirit of this bill being that the Cabinet can have its own organized section. I know we can't have a bloated constitution, but if we have to take things for granted and rely on several pieces of legislation to state the duties of our cabinet members then we might as well organize the information in a better and more formal way.

My proposal for "State" and Interior" was a personal preference of mine, but if there's a consensus in the Senate than Internal and External Affairs are better suited to the Cabinet, then that's fine with me.